Author Topic: What does your dream roguelike have?  (Read 11301 times)

Adral

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What does your dream roguelike have?
« on: May 12, 2007, 09:22:19 AM »
Hi all,

I want to start a thread to share everyone's ideas about what his/her dream roguelike should have, you never know when a developer can come here, look and take some ideas ;). Also, we can share information about existing roguelikes which have/plan to have that ideas implemented.

I'll start with some of mine:
* Random realistic overworld with sites, caves, mountains...(ala Dwarf Fortress). That is just so much cool, to get your character and start exploring the world at your leisure...
* Possibilities to interact with NPCs (of all kinds) other than "hit, hit, miss, cast magic bolt". Incursion is planned to do this...
* Multiplayer capabilities (Yeah, I know it's *very* difficult).
* Melee not being the worst combat option of all times. There is a trend in roguelikes that in almost all of them, melee is just "bump and hit" and very risky and not very rewarding, while using ranged weapons (of all kinds, including magic) is always a superior option. Well, for what it's worth, I *enjoy* using melee, so I'd like a bit more complex melee system which would let the player choose some kind of option to exploit disadvantages of the monster to still make it worthwile with some tactics (e.g: Hitting a giant's legs so it falls over and you are free to kill him while he is on the floor).
* More things I'll probably post about later :P

So, what does people think? What are your ideas?

Edit: Obviously, it also needs to run on Linux for me to play it :P
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 10:12:31 AM by Adral »
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Lavastine

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 12:07:23 AM »
Unless a roguelike is very short I really like them to have some sort of quests to accomplish along the way to the main goal. Even if its just 'kill 10 orcs' or other random easy quests it really helps to keep me interested on the way to floor 100 or whatever to kill the big bad boss and get his item.

Adral

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2007, 09:39:52 AM »
Unless a roguelike is very short I really like them to have some sort of quests to accomplish along the way to the main goal. Even if its just 'kill 10 orcs' or other random easy quests it really helps to keep me interested on the way to floor 100 or whatever to kill the big bad boss and get his item.

Yeah, I completely agree on the quests part. They are usually fun to do and help to keep some interest in the game.

Overarching plots, on the other hand, while cool can hinder replayability a bit, but still, there's ADOM as a successful game. Also, a plot with some random variations every time can be pretty cool (GearHead style).
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gabba

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 08:01:16 PM »
Hi :), I'm new here, I've been a roguelike fan for about two years.

Now on the topic:

* Possibilities to interact with NPCs (of all kinds) other than "hit, hit, miss, cast magic bolt". Incursion is planned to do this...

You're describing one of the elements of what I would really like to see in roguelikes: more realism and immersion in the game world. Personally I'm OK with having no overworld and only one quest (getting the Orb, Amulet, etc.), but I'd like the dungeon to be credible, dreadful and mysterious. Some kind of hybridation with Interactive Fiction might do the trick, at least by adding some nice descriptions. Since ASCII characters are only there as a support to your imagination, there's a lot that can be done by describing the general feeling, "weather", rooms, the sounds you hear in the distance, the sweat running down your brow, the way monsters react to your presence and to each other, and so on.

I'm mainly a Dungon Crawl (Stone Stoup) fan, but in most roguelikes that I have tried, the beginning game is mostly the same because the monsters don't change, you meet them in the same sequence. It feels more like a platform game than a dynamic environment: you encounter tougher and tougher baddies, and from time to time a "boss".
It would be nice if there was a (even if it's wacky) reason for having such monster at such depth. I'd like to see (and plunder) their lairs, to observe their behavior to find ways to trick them, and to listen to their conversations. Rememeber those hilarious orcs' conversations in Lord of the Rings? You could also meet monsters far too tough for you, but still be able to avoid them, because everyone on the level would be running for their lives, and because said monster would not necessarily have you as its only target.

Quote
* Melee not being the worst combat option of all times. There is a trend in roguelikes that in almost all of them, melee is just "bump and hit" and very risky and not very rewarding, while using ranged weapons (of all kinds, including magic) is always a superior option. Well, for what it's worth, I *enjoy* using melee, so I'd like a bit more complex melee system which would let the player choose some kind of option to exploit disadvantages of the monster to still make it worthwile with some tactics (e.g: Hitting a giant's legs so it falls over and you are free to kill him while he is on the floor).

Well, melee is the more powerful option in Crawl in my experience, partly because if you exercise melee combat much, you gain a lot of HP overtime. Also, with an enchanted sword, enchanted heavy armor and shield, you can be quite a tank. One of my characters (Hill Dwarf Gladiator) was wiping the floor with ease, and didn't care about being surrounded by 20 orcs. For big fights like that when you just want some quick action, I think the "bump and hit" system is OK. Especially since in Crawl you can gain additional martial arts attacks by practicing hand-to-hand combat as well as weapon skills.

However I agree that sometimes I'm left wishing for fights that have more depths. Maybe the more complex tactics you're describing could be reserved for more "epic" fights, against monsters close to your level or above it? To refer to Lord of the Rings again, in large fights against relatively stupid minions, there are baddies all over the  place, and they come quickly - and are dispatched as quickly. You don't care if they were hit on the cheekbone or whatever. But when facing the really bad guys (such as the Uruk-Hai boss with the bow), then the details of the fight become much more important, because the outcome is far from certain.

Quote
Edit: Obviously, it also needs to run on Linux for me to play it :P

+1. That is, if it runs properly. I always end up playing Nethack and Crawl on Windows, since the Windows interface to Nethack is so much better, and the keypad movement doesn't work in Linux Crawl because (AFAIK) they use NCurses, which has dodgy keypad support.

Adral

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2007, 10:23:23 PM »
Hi :), I'm new here, I've been a roguelike fan for about two years.

Now on the topic:

* Possibilities to interact with NPCs (of all kinds) other than "hit, hit, miss, cast magic bolt". Incursion is planned to do this...

You're describing one of the elements of what I would really like to see in roguelikes: more realism and immersion in the game world. Personally I'm OK with having no overworld and only one quest (getting the Orb, Amulet, etc.), but I'd like the dungeon to be credible, dreadful and mysterious. Some kind of hybridation with Interactive Fiction might do the trick, at least by adding some nice descriptions. Since ASCII characters are only there as a support to your imagination, there's a lot that can be done by describing the general feeling, "weather", rooms, the sounds you hear in the distance, the sweat running down your brow, the way monsters react to your presence and to each other, and so on.

I'm mainly a Dungon Crawl (Stone Stoup) fan, but in most roguelikes that I have tried, the beginning game is mostly the same because the monsters don't change, you meet them in the same sequence. It feels more like a platform game than a dynamic environment: you encounter tougher and tougher baddies, and from time to time a "boss".
It would be nice if there was a (even if it's wacky) reason for having such monster at such depth. I'd like to see (and plunder) their lairs, to observe their behavior to find ways to trick them, and to listen to their conversations. Rememeber those hilarious orcs' conversations in Lord of the Rings? You could also meet monsters far too tough for you, but still be able to avoid them, because everyone on the level would be running for their lives, and because said monster would not necessarily have you as its only target.


I totally agree with you ;) - check out Incursion if you haven't done so (it is described on some other thread).
Quote
* Melee not being the worst combat option of all times. There is a trend in roguelikes that in almost all of them, melee is just "bump and hit" and very risky and not very rewarding, while using ranged weapons (of all kinds, including magic) is always a superior option. Well, for what it's worth, I *enjoy* using melee, so I'd like a bit more complex melee system which would let the player choose some kind of option to exploit disadvantages of the monster to still make it worthwile with some tactics (e.g: Hitting a giant's legs so it falls over and you are free to kill him while he is on the floor).

Well, melee is the more powerful option in Crawl in my experience, partly because if you exercise melee combat much, you gain a lot of HP overtime. Also, with an enchanted sword, enchanted heavy armor and shield, you can be quite a tank. One of my characters (Hill Dwarf Gladiator) was wiping the floor with ease, and didn't care about being surrounded by 20 orcs. For big fights like that when you just want some quick action, I think the "bump and hit" system is OK. Especially since in Crawl you can gain additional martial arts attacks by practicing hand-to-hand combat as well as weapon skills.

Still, ranged attacks are superior, I think. They keep you out of the monster's reach (generally) and they usually have nice side-effects (like poisoning or the magical effects from spells.

But please note that I am a total n00b when playing RLs :P

Quote
Edit: Obviously, it also needs to run on Linux for me to play it :P

+1. That is, if it runs properly. I always end up playing Nethack and Crawl on Windows, since the Windows interface to Nethack is so much better, and the keypad movement doesn't work in Linux Crawl because (AFAIK) they use NCurses, which has dodgy keypad support.

I have no problems with playing Crawl on Linux...
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Lavastine

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2007, 12:12:05 AM »
Quote
* Melee not being the worst combat option of all times. There is a trend in roguelikes that in almost all of them, melee is just "bump and hit" and very risky and not very rewarding, while using ranged weapons (of all kinds, including magic) is always a superior option. Well, for what it's worth, I *enjoy* using melee, so I'd like a bit more complex melee system which would let the player choose some kind of option to exploit disadvantages of the monster to still make it worthwile with some tactics (e.g: Hitting a giant's legs so it falls over and you are free to kill him while he is on the floor).

Some of what you want is already there in Dwarf Fortress adventure mode. While the actual melee attacks are still bump and hit they have very visceral&bloodly affects. For example, you might chop off an enemies weapon hand, resulting in him losing his weapon, or for another example, you might pierce his long, resulting in him suffocating, and this is really just scratching the surface of all the bloody stuff that happens with the standard bump-hit system in that game.
And then there is wrestling, you can grapple any of his body parts(including each individual finger and toe!) with any of you body parts(that have manipulation anyways) to put them in holds to restrict there use, breaking joints, doing take-downs, throws, tackles, and choke holds. In addition you could steal his weapon from his hands and kill him with it.

I think it would be amazing to have a DF style combat system, with Incursion style dungeons and room descriptions.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Edit: Obviously, it also needs to run on Linux for me to play it Tongue

+1. That is, if it runs properly. I always end up playing Nethack and Crawl on Windows, since the Windows interface to Nethack is so much better, and the keypad movement doesn't work in Linux Crawl because (AFAIK) they use NCurses, which has dodgy keypad support.

I have no problems with playing Crawl on Linux...

As far as keypad support goes, even with the windows version of crawl i have to turn the numlock off to have it recognize the numpad, which is super annoying.

Oh man, manually quoting people who are quoting people, who are quoting people ftl, it took me a good 4 minutes to get this worked out and it's probably wrong :(



Anvilfolk

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2007, 12:29:22 PM »
Hi everyone!

Noone seems to know IVAN, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. It's a really, really great roguelike, with tile graphics (but don't let that fool you, it still rocks).

It's got some of what most people have been talking about, namely separate bodyparts. It doesn't use a level system, but a skill system, which I quite like (sort of like ADOM). And if you're fighting zombies, you might catch leprosy and your limbs start falling off... but then you can pray to one of several deities (which hopefully like you) and they might just give you a new limb. Made of a material that fits the god. A "Merchant" god will give you a limb made of expensive fabric. In my latest game when I got a limb chopped off, I prayed to a chaotic goddess and she gave me an arm made of mushroom.

You guys should try it out from ivan.sourceforge.net.

Also, my dream roguelike would probably have larger-scaled battles, not just single-handedly taking out an entire dungeon.

And Dwarf Fortress rules big-time!
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Adral

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2007, 12:42:08 PM »
Hi everyone!

Noone seems to know IVAN, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. It's a really, really great roguelike, with tile graphics (but don't let that fool you, it still rocks).

I did try IVAN some time ago. Also, as I am called Ivan in Real Life (tm), it has bonus points :P

Anyway, I'll give it a shot again. I was so dissapointed when I read it was not actively developed anymore I didn't want to "get hooked" on it, because I do not like seeing a game that could potentially be great but there will be no more improvement, specially with roguelikes (since they almost always have room for improvement).
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Anvilfolk

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2007, 04:50:10 PM »
No need to worry about that! It is at version 0.5, and while there are lots of cool stuff that could potentially be added, it's still a game all on its own, just like Dwarf Fortress is right now. Supposedly still in beta, but more than fully playable!

It takes awhile to get used to the commands, but it's well worth it!
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averin

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2007, 03:52:57 AM »
Quote
What are your ideas?

Let's see...

1) I have to be able to install and run it.  Does not require me to compile the source code.
2) Does not require two months of spoiler-reading before you can actually play the game.
3) Easy interface.
4) Good scoring system, must contain high score list.
5) Like others have said, quests are good.  But hopefully they're easy to find and you don't need too much advance knowledge of the game before being able to properly execute them.
6) Versatility in actions -- the ability to apply almost anything to almost anything else and have the game interpret it as something sensible.  This might go against #2, though.  I guess I just like different roguelikes at different times of the day :)
7) Hopefully the dungeon is rather small, so a winning game doesn't take months to complete.
8 ) Large fanbase, so I have shoulders to cry on when I YASD.  Comprehensive spoiler sites.

Slash

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Re: What does your dream roguelike have?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 09:14:37 PM »
1. Exploration as an important factor, may be more than combat itself
2. World generation, creating a believable world coupled with the population living on it
3. Complexity of interactions
4. Item building
5. Ability to command units
6. A social hierachy ruling over the commanding system
7. FUN, thus not exceedingly realist (I want to relax and enjoy playing the game)
8. Some other things, but I will stop spoiling :)