Turn-based vs real time

[Xaron]

Hi there,

another question came up to my mind when thinking about creating a new RL. I know usually everything is done turn based an actually I prefer to have time to think what to do, especially in battles but personally I don't like to make movements in turns, so I'm curious what you would prefer? Everything turn based or everything even real time or something in between?

Cheers!

[Avagart]

If you are going to create roguelike, there is only one way - 100% turn based, including movement

[Xaron]

Yeah I know what you mean. So as long as you don't do anything, time stands still. In classic ones that mean you would have action points and kind of an "end turn" button, right?

[Avagart]

Roguelikes usually are using simple turn based system, without action points. The classic ones are not exceptions. It's simple mechanics, just turn-for-turn, wrapped around some sort of speed (movement / attack) system. It used to be a bit relative, faster character acts more often, just it.

[AgingMinotaur]

A possible downside to using separate modes for combat and movement, is that you lose some of the flow and general feeling of freedom that's typical for (old-school) RLs. Non-modal gameplay can result in more "emergent gameplay", I think. An example of what I mean, is how shops work in Nethack, et al. It'd be difficult indeed to make an equally dynamic system/interface in a game with modal combat. (Of course, there are degrees: people find systems like in Fallout or Final Fantasy more or less easy to swallow.)

Re action points etc. I'm no huge fan myself, but it can work for a highly tactical game, or if you control more units. Having to click several buttons just to move seems like a hassle, so I guess in that case a separate battle mode might be preferable.

As always,
Minotauros

[Xaron]

Thanks for your opinions! So what do you think about this mixed approach, FTL for instance uses. I know, FTL is not a roguelike by definition but actually I like the way they did it there.

I just want to explicitly ask for movements in those games. So usually as you don't do anything time stands still, right? So no enemies will move either. They move as soon as you move turn by turn... I just want to get my head wrapped around this, it's been quite a while since I played my last RL, but I think cogmind for instance does it that way, right?

I don't like action points either, I think that movements and other actions will just increase kind of a "time counter" (ticks) is the most common way of doing it?

What I don't like about that is, that enemies don't move at all, so you cannot be "caught" while waiting somewhere. So a pausable realtime environment is quite suitable as well I guess...

Sorry for my probably stupid questions...

[Avagart]

movements and other actions will just increase kind of a "time counter" (ticks) is the most common way of doing it?

As far as I know, this is fair popular approach.

What I don't like about that is, that enemies don't move at all, so you cannot be "caught" while waiting somewhere

Don't get it. Do you mean it's wrong that enemies doesn't move when you are not spending turns? Or maybe did you play roguelike with totally immobile monsters (like Desktop Dungeons)?

Usually (it depends on game, of course), monsters are wandering through the level, so if you are resting long, it's very likely that some monsters will spot and attack player.

[Xaron]

Usually (it depends on game, of course), monsters are wandering through the level, so if you are resting long, it's very likely that some monsters will spot and attack player.

That's what I meant, yes.

So another question came to my mind, how do long range weapons (e.g. missiles) work in such an environment? As time only proceeds as long as the player moves or does some action and missiles usually don't impact immediately, do those missiles move only when the player moves/acts?

I still think about what would be a good approach for an underwater future submarine game where you have a submarine which is kind of a room itself, you can move around with that sub. Other submarines are out there which could be attacked or even entered (by just docking and entering it with you as the player - so every sub is kind of another "room")... and so on...

Maybe kind of a tick-based game could be an option where the player can of course alter the duration for every tick dependent on what he's trying to do and allowing other subs to proceed even though the player just waits somewhere. I know this is going in the direction of realtime but I still see this as turn based as you can change the pace.

Thanks!

[AgingMinotaur]

The usual system for missiles in RLs is to have them reach their target instantaneously. Of course, not being able to sidestep arrows in Nethack doesn't necessarily make it the ideal system for any strategy RL. The classics all portray an adventurer on foot in a dungeon, so scale and time is bound to be different in your game. I don't know much about submarines, but if passably realistic, it might be cool with a game where you have to navigate to avoid incoming torpedoes and the like.

Also, here is an abandoned sub-based 7drl: http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=4959.0

As always,
Minotauros

[Xaron]

Thanks for that! Well I will see what I can do and think a bit about that.

Regarding that sub idea. Just think about the sub like a ship in FTL but the movement of this ship is done turn based. So you as the player control the ship but can also leave your control panel within the ship to move to other rooms within the ship or even leave it at stations to move within the station and so on. Sounds ambitious, eh?

About that abandoned submarine game, it's gone as far as I can see - unfortunately.

[Avagart]

Also, you could check Fleeing The Fray. In this 7drl, missiles move only when player acts, and whole gameplay is wrapped about this quirk.

I have a feeling that you don't know much about (classic, at least) roguelikes. So, I'd recommend to download and play some, it's best way to learn how it works.

[Xaron]

Yes you're right. I will look into some. The only "real" one I've really played is cogmind. Beside that FTL...

I've played quite a lot of turn based games in the past like xcom...

 Thanks for the suggestions!

[Avagart]

So, you may want to check still live classics, like ADOM (free R60 release), Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, NetHack. This will give you more knowledge about roguelikes than our your question and our replies. Good luck

[Lord_Mork]

Hm, this is an age-old question.

For one, real-time is harder to program. Output, control, everything is easier in a tb game, because it can be done in a single chunk of activity. But if you've made games before, this won't matter as much.

I'd also think about your target audience. If even you, the creator, needs time to think his actions out, are you sure you would be comfortable designing something intended for those who would rather act on reflex or speed?

If you really despise traditional turns, you might look into a more nuanced turn-based system that takes into account initiative, like Starfleet Battles's "impulse system", which tracks a series of actions more complex than just 'alternate between entities'.

[Xaron]

Thanks again, awesome hints and suggestions. I already love this community!

Actually I love turn based games and prefer them compared to real times ones because for the latter you often have just to train your skills, it's more reaction and so on.

My scenario would be (as said) a futuristic submarine one like in Archimedean Dynasty, where the mankind had to start to live below the surface in the oceans permanently. This would be more an open world scenario than the classic dungeon one. As submarines usually fire stuff like torpedoes, I think the best would be to handle them turn based as well, because torpedoes are not that fast like usual projectiles.

Maybe I should open another thread for this but do you think open world scenarios are appealing to roguelike gamers?

Cheers!