How you guys feel about the new wave of rougelike games?

[getter77]

Mostly I'm tired of looking at the announcements page and seeing $ after $ after $, all sorts of games released for Steam with no source and ugh.

I know I said I'd leave well enough alone generally...but...generally~

Part of this isn't quite as it seems owing in large part due to a stylistic request earnestly made to me a good ways back now to throw the $ up there as it is along with the other pertinent info so that they might keep things better organized---and from there is just kind of stuck once I got into the habit.   Prior to this, such $ concerns were more of a "surprise" buried someplace in the first post, if even that soon in the thread---the commercial projects were still very much "there" alongside the rest, just not so prominent in their symbolism.   Take heart and have courage:  Your project is awesome and you should stand to feel awesome---the gulf is still vast between just Commercial projects and proper Mega-Projects with the latter absolutely being of at least equal import when stood side by side with the former due to the potential gains, both indirect and direct, from it being unique and special in an absolute sense.   

The rest is what it has become though, no getting around that in terms of Steam and/or lack of source.   Aside from the already well trodden economic aspects, it is an unfortunately turn of history that the tools/engine side of the equation has largely faded off into the hinterlands for various reasons---from the various ones that didn't make it out of the early days scattered back in the winds of time on this very forum despite being cool and useful sounding, to the Big Ones that couldn't reach the next thresholds of power and stay alive/current outright like libtcod.  Without a tools and dev pipeline keeping rough relative pace to the advances in mindshare and whatnot alongside outright ambition, folks are just off doing their own thing or more often bludgeoning the ever living hell out of Unity and whatnot to a point tantamount to self-flagellation in lieu of having their specific and special needs already well taken care of at the forefront.

Nowadays, the Hopes in terms of people getting stuck in without getting Stuck In come down to the likes of T-Engine, which aside from the thankful ongoing success of Veins of the Earth, has yet to kick up to a critically productive mass despite that wonderful Module contest from awhile back that generated some stellar one off's that hopefully get additional polish at some point after the Orc campaign finally lands or some such...general hopes that things will liven back up in the lands of Chaosforge aside from the industrious pit of woe in the shadows of Jupiter Hell...the prospects technically better than ever in *BAND Country on account of the enormous v4.0.X days upon us as well as the crazy QT edition providing folks old and new alike can be tempted and tantalized into action...NotEye continuing to improve via ADOM and all else...the TC Module backend behind X@COM/Cogmind bearing more random fruit...and not a whole lot else that immediately comes to mind.

In theory, Unreal Engine 4 and, deeper in theory, some of the ongoing adventures in new(usually C(++) power successor) programming languages outright stand to help spur The Source aspect as well as Roguelike's other oft under-appreciated ally and/or foil historically---the future plucking from the unknown frontier expeditions.


Other stuff since I last checked in here:       So this is what the vague chats elsewhere were talking about specifically...

The urge to get all regressive amidst a Renaissance is an elder foe within humanity---best bet is to rage against it while noting all the times in history it has been soundly demonstrated that the Renaissance ultimately wins out...optimism to be on the better side of progress is the better move as one has every chance to shape active history literally in the making for the best.

[Krice]

Precisely.  We've all met writers who don't read (usually in creative writing classes), and their writing is horrible

Creative writing classes are for people that want to get better at writing in an oft structured classical setting. I was talking about a totally different thing, I said that I've already read all that there is. It's boring to read books, because I know how they work.


*Edit:  Mod interference improvement to reflect reality and not venture down the thorny path of foolishly slurring folks out of freaking nowhere in bold---again as per the Temple Conducts precepts.*

[Krice]

$ up there as it is along with the other pertinent info so that they might keep things better organized---and from there is just kind of stuck once I got into the habit.   Prior to this, such $

I would not worry about $, because those games has nothing to do with roguelikes. If we see a commercial game that is true roguelike I'm going to cry tears of joy.

[getter77]

...that's pretty much already been the case though unless you go deep into the rabbit hole of No True Scotsman arguments where nothing of value is generated nor resides. ADOM is there, Sword of Fargoal 2 soon enough, Dungeonmans, ToME 4, 1Quest, Caves of Qud, MidBoss, Lost Labyrinth, Cogmind, Dredmor, WazHack, SotS The Pit,  Ragnarok/Valhalla/Jaunt Trooper/Rogue itself back in the day, the Mystery Dungeon series, Voyage to Farland,  Pixel Dungeon and the progeny thereof very directly Roguelike---it just goes on and on like this.

Even the oft damnable Berlin reckonings generally tend to fit most, if not all, in all the ways that matter in a concrete sense---the history has already happened man, there's no going back from that same as anything else so your tears should've already ran long since dry unto giving way to jubilant celebration for the present times being the best it has ever been by all sorts of metrics and measures in the Roguelike world.  The tech is much improved, ability to share and gain visibility for projects is a night and day difference, communities are numerous and varied---a golden age of persisting vigor and vivacity like no other since the inception at the fringes where even just a common accident on the road could've wiped out the entire lot of it in a heartbeat.   I mean, in terms of overall positive outcomes and trajectories---about the only thing "missing" is that the various crazy Talkie projects didn't actually wind up making it to shore up the towering backlog even moreso...the rest has pretty well fallen into place and continues to do so.

Even beyond all that, if somehow none of these work, there's nothing stopping you or anybody else from just putting a "true roguelike" out there commercially and seeing what happens in the wider market---something that has never been so viable as now and to no detriment if you don't anticipate any recoup of investment/time.   If you idolize something too much, you lose touch with the essence of the thing outright as you'll have nothing but hate and bile for every part of it that doesn't fit The Icon but rather makes up the Gestalt.   Everything that is made awesome manifest is also made up of myriad shit and failures and dead ends and borrowed concepts on the road to getting there and beyond---the journey and the process are what is paramount, not some damned taxonomy devoid of all the romanticism and age of high adventure.

[jcd748]

I think for me, the crux of it is this: at some point, the majority of roguelikes passed from the concept of being "Unix games" to "indie games".  For the former, there is generally the expectation of source being available, so that the game can be built on whatever platform you're running.  For the latter, it's typically closed source, teaser videos, early access, Greenlight.

It is what it is.  I don't like it, but I can't do anything beyond making the game I want to make, and try to make it the way that I feel is best.

[getter77]

Ah, the Fabled Year of the Linux Desktop was also something that never happened alongside the fortunes of the other big Tinkerer OS projects that carried with it a different cultural strain of sensibilities versus the goings on in the land of Windows and to a similar extent Mac Country---aside from the current joustings of SteamOS, "Unix games" are about the farthest things generally associated with Unix and whatnot by the general public as the environ/ongoing disasterpiece with the hardware/driver manufacturers leaned in collectively hard instead on...well....very much not multimedia content creation and enjoyment aimed at all comers.  Of course, the history of Roguelikes would've been so very different had Commodore and Amiga not blazed needless trails unto oblivion with only the latter still persisting and sort of trying as a shell of the former glory...even aside from the terminal world's own fade to black...

The closest things nowadays to the inheritance of that communal spirit would be the likes of Haiku and MenuetOS---each mired in their own respective quirks, though the main one that matters on the former would be how long it has taken them to still not quite make it to even a Beta status and eke out that shadow of BeOS in full, but the latter at least relatively established at what it tries to do even if stuck in time to an unintentional degree.

But yeah, running your race as best you can as an exemplar of the sort of ideals you'd hope to become more prominent again for those that'll take note of them and the accomplishments you can wring out is the best way to go.  I mean, it is a trite example at this point, but Minecraft damn sure wasn't gone about in a Best/Sane/Healthy Practices sense in terms of the prevailing wisdom/trends of the times or otherwise---what mattered was the absolute efficacy with a healthy portion of eventual luck that then beget quite a tremendous ripple in the old pond.

[Krice]

Ah, the Fabled Year of the Linux Desktop was also something that never happened

Linux has a desktop I guess. I think this is getting off-topic, but who cares. Linux has couple of problems and it's true that non-commercial nature of the OS is one of them. You have to be able to release games in binary mode compatible with all linux versions, which I hear is impossible. So Linux will never have software it needs to be a complete OS for real life use. The real problem is that linux people don't get it. They only see what they want to see, from their point of view. It's like these non-roguelikes that claim they are roguelikes, because it's a genre or in this case a "brand" for marketing.

[Rickton]

Ah, the Fabled Year of the Linux Desktop was also something that never happened

Linux has a desktop I guess. I think this is getting off-topic, but who cares. Linux has couple of problems and it's true that non-commercial nature of the OS is one of them. You have to be able to release games in binary mode compatible with all linux versions, which I hear is impossible. So Linux will never have software it needs to be a complete OS for real life use. The real problem is that linux people don't get it. They only see what they want to see, from their point of view. It's like these non-roguelikes that claim they are roguelikes, because it's a genre or in this case a "brand" for marketing.

So when a roguelike is commercial it's bad, but when an OS is non-commercial it's bad. Got it.

[Krice]

So when a roguelike is commercial it's bad, but when an OS is non-commercial it's bad. Got it.

No, when something is something else than it should be, then it's bad. Linux isn't a nice OS in desktop use you could say, and some of these so called roguelikes aren't roguelikes.

By the way, ADOM doesn't count as a commercial roguelike, because it wasn't that earlier. I see the commercial ADOM as a betrayal and just a simple way to make money. Biskup should have left ADOM as it was and possibly release ADOM 2 as a commercial game from the start. But he was in hurry to make money when all this crowd funding stuff began.

[Avagart]

I cannot call ADoM 'commercial roguelike' if is (and will be) available free version, which isn't demo or cut-off version. OK, there is lack of some features existing in paid version, but there are really minor things. So. semi-/half-commercial for me. Simple way to make money? Probably you are right. Betrayal? Oh man, it's really *BIG* word.

[getter77]

Given ADOM's actual community has been tremendously generous/supportive alongside their newest growing members, I'm not sure you can square betrayal with something you've long established an entire lack of faith in and whatnot.   Even if Biskup had instead chosen to walk away forever having burned and salted the lot of it, there's no earned or deigned entitlement whatsoever for the present or posterity.  Reality and the playerbase have overwhelmingly spoken.

Nothing "simple" about paying a team either, probably one of the harder and more frustrating things to wrangle really in terms of weight and rightful expectations.

[Aleksanderus]

I cannot call ADoM 'commercial roguelike' if is (and will be) available free version, which isn't demo or cut-off version. OK, there is lack of some features existing in paid version, but there are really minor things. So. semi-/half-commercial for me. Simple way to make money? Probably you are right. Betrayal? Oh man, it's really *BIG* word.

Crash in every 10 minutes of playing is minor thing? Thomas should make free version more stable.

[akeley]

In a way, Krice is an Alex Jones of RL world. As in, we might have similar notions and ideas, but there`s always an insane catch - e.g: the world is sucked dry by a cabal of corporate shills, bankers, rich elites and corrupt politicians...but not because of them simply being a network of evil people but because they`re BUNCH OF REPTILES FROM PLANET X.

This makes discussing such issues with non-believers impossible because they tend to dismiss everything as "ah, another kerrazy conspiracy theory". Similarly here, dunderheaded, illogical "arguments", plenty of which can be witnessed above, might make anybody from the "new wave" camp roll their eyes really hard, mutter something about "stuck up cavemen grognards" and fire up Dredmor to cleanse the palate.

Other thing is, the situation seems to be usually painted in either black or white -as in,  complete doom or glorious new era. Personally I`m closer to the former, but nowhere so definite. There are good and bad things coming out of the "new wave" - the fact that previously non-RL genres like platformers, shooters, brawlers etc  take on roguelike elements is awesome - that`s precisely what we need to revitalise these genres, and sometimes results are truly astounding.  New ways of distribution, ease of payments and new converts can also be a good thing.

However, the biggest danger - that the traditional roguelikes -as a specific genre - will be swept away and forgotten does exist, no doubt about that. Yep, the struggle is real, no matter how much some folk will try to deride this notion or try to pretend it doesn`t even exist. I`m all up for inclusiveness but without forgetting distinctiveness. And the new designers are all about roguelites - can you really name a modern high-level "true" roguelike out there, overground? One that`s not been around forever like Qud or ADOM or written by an old-schooler like Cogmind?

[getter77]

...Maybe?  At least some of the partial list I jotted above probably count well enough.   With all the qualifiers in place it really strikes me as a needless albatross/goal post shifting considering, well, while it is true that Roguelikes have been around long enough to be one of the founding genres of gaming worthy of veneration still largely not doled out in proportion compared to peers like cRPGs and the like---the absolutes are also there that, like gaming, it is laughably young in the grand scheme of things.  I mean, we're only just now arrive at the first real phase of mass death in the medium of all the early pioneers as per how the demography has worked out---which is especially why I'm highly reticent to reckon we've already passed some sort of "peak Roguelike" threshold as it just doesn't square well versus all the other cultural creative endeavors of human history.

I suppose there's parallels in the actual classical grognard camp that reckons even AD&D is a sacrilege too far compared to The Real True D&D---but much as in that camp, what granules of truth there may be to the notion do not validate the steaming handfuls of muck they are swimming in so much as question why you don't just rinse the damn things clear of it and continue prospecting.

If you REALLY have to play a card of "Well, some 18 year old in school, where's your true Roguelike as per your forebears at about this time?", then you've got a hell of a time on your hands dealing with the state of P&P Tabletop and all else that has at least changed dramatically, if not failed to keep to a good course, since the late 70's to early 90's---as such a backdrop was what led to Rogue itself in the first place and heavily influenced Qud, ADOM, and a host of the other elder pillars as culture is more of a roiling stew than some sort of vacuum when it comes to such matters.  It isn't the fault of The Roguelikes or The Roguelites---all are shaped by the myriad environs and goings on surrounding their creation and consumption relative to and including everything else.

This is part of why Berlin and such are of limited use---you can only get taxonomic to such an extent when it comes down to The Spirit of The Thing, despite the best endeavors of all classic Mythology and the most broken minds of Old World of Darkness splat books.  That Sense combined with plucking from the future is about all that elevates Roguelikes beyond the Maths upon a Spreadsheet of Doom that have settled in to shackle the 4X genre---nothing good will come of such a pursuit on a mistaken path to Purity.

[Avagart]

Crash in every 10 minutes of playing is minor thing? Thomas should make free version more stable.

Which version are you playing? There is error message? I'm using R60 and everything works fine, and this is a lot more stable than old 1.1.1. or winbeta4. If you didn't use local storing data settings, you have to delete data folder in C:\Users\Current_User\AppData\Local\ADOM\.