Author Topic: Preferred screen size?  (Read 17578 times)

Trystan

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Preferred screen size?
« on: March 09, 2015, 11:01:29 PM »
What's a good screen size for a roguelike? What works well with youtube reviews? I know using the terminal directly means the user can change the size to what they want but I'm asking about tiles or emulated terminal.

I think the "old school" terminal style is a 640x480 window with 9x16 tiles.

My current 7DRL is 640x480 with 10x10 tiles and seems ok. One of my previous 7DRL was 600x600 with 8x8 tiles and looked terrible on youtube due to resizing and some people said it was too small.

So what actually works well?

Omnivore

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2015, 06:52:30 AM »
Depends upon your game's setting, its intended audience, and the intended deployment platforms.

The first roguelikes were mostly played on old green screen terminals which had either 40 or 80 character width and 25 lines for the most part.  Working that out to modern terms, assuming 4:3 aspect ratio of the terminals, you were looking at something like 8x16 or 8x12 fonts.  A bit later on 640x480 monitors, square sizes became a favorite for many with 8x8 fonts giving a nice sized map onscreen.

We're in an entirely different world today.  It used to be considered rather expensive, even prohibitively expensive, to have a scrolling map or player character-centric view (expensive in memory, cycles, and bandwidth).  These days I believe the resolution of the intended deployment platform is the primary driving criteria.  It even influences what kind of playable game you can reasonably expect to provide.  For instance, a game with primarily ranged combat is going to be difficult to do justice to on an smart phone display.

A common 'mistake' that has been made was to assume that larger screens and higher resolutions meant you could make things smaller and fit more stuff on the screen.  Well... that's true to a point, but only to a point.  The larger the screen is, the more I find myself viewing from a further distance, and vice versa.  This offsets the screen size and resolution aspects a bit.

Rather than try to give you a straight up answer, I'll simply say, look at the tile based games you think look good on youtube reviews and choose that same number of cells horizontally and vertically.  Scale your fonts and/or tiles to match.  Note that this will have a profound effect though on what type of game you can present effectively.  As a rule of thumb, the lower the size of the viewport (in cells), the more you want to emphasize short range attacks and indoor environments.

One way of getting more bang for your buck out of a given viewport size is to make your game have a player centric viewpoint, where you are showing only the 'awareness zone' of the player's character on screen.  You could go even further and use a rotating display and model awareness as a conical volume.  I played around a bit with that idea in my Snapshot prototype https://love2d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&p=113183 but wasn't satisfied with the results*. 

A somewhat odd side effect of all this is that having a large number of cells displayed on the screen actually reduces the amount of time you'll have to spend on graphics - since the detail is lower - even to the point where using completely abstract symbols makes for a clearer more understandable display than any image you could come up with (or reinvent ascii fonts).  Conversely the fewer cells you display on screen, the more important each becomes and you'll spend more and more of your time working on the graphics and less and less on the game behind the screen.  Which... is what roguelikes were all about up until the last decade or two.

*Also some research indicated that rotating views could make some people physically ill --- oops.

Kyzrati

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 07:14:51 AM »
If your aim is to make sure videos will look good, you'll probably want at least a 16x16 font, preferably larger if necessary for the game to be recorded in 1080p, and a viewport with a 16:9 aspect ratio.

I've been designing roguelikes with the old 4:3 ratio, and it just doesn't make sense anymore, so Cogmind now offers an expandable view to 16:9 (or any other ratio), and in the future I'll be designing all my games for 16:9 instead.

Is it too much trouble to allow for different font choices? Really the implementation depends on your individual game, though. As Omnivore says, cell size and viewport have a significant impact on both gameplay and workload.

Krice

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2015, 01:22:06 PM »
Is it too much trouble to allow for different font choices?

I think often it is, because usually fonts are bitmaps and not only that the other (graphical) elements of UI are optimized for them.

For screen size I would say look at the usual devices and resolutions for them. I think many devices have 800 vertical pixels (tablets and mini laptops) and the next common vertical resolution is 1080 (in PCs). The horizontal resolution can then be anything from 4:3 to 16:9.

Kyzrati

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2015, 01:37:15 PM »
Is it too much trouble to allow for different font choices?

I think often it is, because usually fonts are bitmaps and not only that the other (graphical) elements of UI are optimized for them.
Ah, I meant as in changing the font size changes the size of the game window as it does in most roguelikes, therefore having no impact on the content layout or proportions. Bitmaps can be rescaled, as libtcod does to provide fonts at a huge range of dimensions.

OP: If stats are what you're after in order to cater to the majority of what's out there, the chart on this page is very informative. Basically more than 80% of players out there use a widescreen resolution. Last year I wrote an analysis of my own font decisions based on that, with lots of examples if you're interested. Actually, now that I check the link the more general Fonts in Roguelikes post would be an appropriate read, too.

Krice

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 03:09:16 PM »
Ah, I meant as in changing the font size changes the size of the game window as it does in most roguelikes, therefore having no impact on the content layout or proportions. Bitmaps can be rescaled, as libtcod does to provide fonts at a huge range of dimensions.

First works only if the game is "full" ascii roguelike with all elements consisting of characters of equal size. Bitmaps can be rescaled, but the results are often crappy if working with only bitmaps and not with vector based fonts. I guess libtcod is using ttf fonts and then converts them to bitmaps. Even then fonts can have problems with spacing issues, also with monospace fonts.

Kyzrati

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 03:13:48 PM »
As I understand it libtcod does use ttf fonts converted to bitmaps, yeah. The square ones certainly don't look good for normal text.

Part of why we can't really give specific good advice to the OP is he didn't give us any information about the roguelike in question. Hard to say if we're even being helpful here without more input ;)

Trystan

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2015, 04:21:51 PM »
Thanks for all the great replies everyone.

Is it too much trouble to allow for different font choices? Really the implementation depends on your individual game, though. As Omnivore says, cell size and viewport have a significant impact on both gameplay and workload.

True, but for a 7DRL written from scratch in a language I'm still learning, yes it is too much. But I think I will switch to 16:9 ratio.

OP: If stats are what you're after in order to cater to the majority of what's out there, the chart on this page is very informative. Basically more than 80% of players out there use a widescreen resolution. Last year I wrote an analysis of my own font decisions based on that, with lots of examples if you're interested. Actually, now that I check the link the more general Fonts in Roguelikes post would be an appropriate read, too.

Perfect, that's a great post and really helpful.

Part of why we can't really give specific good advice to the OP is he didn't give us any information about the roguelike in question. Hard to say if we're even being helpful here without more input ;)

Here's the game I'm working on this year: http://7drl.org/tag/runner_puncher. There's a screenshot with 8x8 and 10x10 font size.

Kyzrati

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 04:48:48 PM »
Looking good! Without multiple font options it'll be tough to determine what your largest font size can be, since every size you go up you'll cut some people out. Naturally the larger the better for videos. But yeah, I'd say at least switching to 16:9 makes sense these days.

Good luck!

Avagart

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2015, 06:38:23 PM »
To the topic' question: terminal 8x12 (because 8x16 is too width), in pixels - 640x480 are too small in 2015, but 800x600 is perfect. Many laptops have 768px height screen and games with 1024x768 screen size are too big; 'top bar' (I dont know how to say it in english... this bar with name of application) has XXpx and bottom of game screen is out of eyeshot.

Trystan

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Re: Preferred screen size?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 06:14:43 AM »
I ended up letting the user override the default window and font size by command line switches. Took about 60 minutes. Totally worth it.

It defaults to a 1280x720 window or smaller based on your screen size with a 10x10 font.