Author Topic: Shops  (Read 37757 times)

Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2014, 05:39:53 PM »
Selling stuff is mandatory. I can't stand the idea of having a world in which you can't sell the items you find throughout your journeys. Not only it would be utterly unrealistic but also turning most items you find to mare annoyances. Just make sure the player won't become rich that easily.

Well, it promotes grinding, which is plainly boring. There are solutions to it though. For example, you can make shopkeepers have a stock of money available, with which they can buy your items. It's better than infinite amount of money from a "realism first" perspective and it also limits grinding, because if a shopkeeper runs out of money, then you have to search for a new one deeper in the dungeon or in some more difficult area of the overworld. Ideally, shopkeepers should have just enough money to be able to buy all the things you gathered on your way to them, but not much more than that.

Yeah definitely! I actually stated my view having into account the limited stock of money available to buy items from the player, exactly as implemented in Skyrim. My bad, I've should have emphasized that.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:44:03 PM by Endorya »
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Aukustus

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Re: Shops
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2014, 05:46:03 PM »
For example, you can make shopkeepers have a stock of money available, with which they can buy your items. It's better than infinite amount of money...

I really like the idea of vendor's finite money. I'll at least include that. Buying stuff would increase merchant's money.

Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2014, 05:59:02 PM »
For example, you can make shopkeepers have a stock of money available, with which they can buy your items. It's better than infinite amount of money...

I really like the idea of vendor's finite money. I'll at least include that. Buying stuff would increase merchant's money.

Exactly!
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Quendus

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Re: Shops
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 06:45:22 PM »
I don't know about you, but not many of the shops I frequent are willing to buy old broken stuff from me, least of all things I stole from a bloodsoaked body or found on the floor.

mushroom patch

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Re: Shops
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 06:48:03 PM »
For example, you can make shopkeepers have a stock of money available, with which they can buy your items. It's better than infinite amount of money...

I really like the idea of vendor's finite money. I'll at least include that. Buying stuff would increase merchant's money.

I doubt this will really solve any design problems. To make this a consistent constraint on farming etc. throughout the game, the shopkeeper's money supply will have to change as the player advances (i.e. more will need to be added as the player progresses and the items available change -- otherwise, this creates no constraint in the early game and/or a silly constraint in the late game). It will also add to the challenges of balancing drop rates, especially gold drop rates.

If I were you, I would take another look at the traditional roguelike approach of limited, randomized item availability in stores and think carefully about why you don't think it will work in your game. If you're serious about the simplicity of your weapon model, I think you'll quickly see there's no reason randomized shop inventories can't work.

rust

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Re: Shops
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2014, 06:56:57 PM »
Yeah definitely! I actually stated my view having into account the limited stock of money available to buy items from the player, exactly as implemented in Skyrim. My bad, I've should have emphasized that.

It's in Skyrim too? I got the idea from an old RPG called Gothic. Its trading system is closer to barter, where currency is just one of the trade goods and you can buy things without having any in your inventory (or sell things without vendor having any). I'm going to implement a very similar system in my game.

I don't know about you, but not many of the shops I frequent are willing to buy old broken stuff from me, least of all things I stole from a bloodsoaked body or found on the floor.

Good point, that's the dissimilarity I wrote about earlier. In my project there won't be shops, but instead the player will be able to trade with every friendly NPC. The catch is that they won't buy anything they don't need (for example, a fellow adventurer might want to buy a better weapon and some food).

Aukustus

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Re: Shops
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2014, 07:13:58 PM »
For example, you can make shopkeepers have a stock of money available, with which they can buy your items. It's better than infinite amount of money...

I really like the idea of vendor's finite money. I'll at least include that. Buying stuff would increase merchant's money.

I doubt this will really solve any design problems. To make this a consistent constraint on farming etc. throughout the game, the shopkeeper's money supply will have to change as the player advances (i.e. more will need to be added as the player progresses and the items available change -- otherwise, this creates no constraint in the early game and/or a silly constraint in the late game). It will also add to the challenges of balancing drop rates, especially gold drop rates.

If I were you, I would take another look at the traditional roguelike approach of limited, randomized item availability in stores and think carefully about why you don't think it will work in your game. If you're serious about the simplicity of your weapon model, I think you'll quickly see there's no reason randomized shop inventories can't work.

I'll make both, finite money and randomized selection of goods. Roguelike shops work in my opinion though. I'll just make the Wirt example I mentioned which would be almost like traditional roguelike shop with some changes.

Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2014, 07:35:39 PM »
I don't know about you, but not many of the shops I frequent are willing to buy old broken stuff from me, least of all things I stole from a bloodsoaked body or found on the floor.

I usually clean the goods before selling them and I never tell the shopkeeper I stole them, if stolen at all.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 07:48:10 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2014, 07:45:35 PM »
It's in Skyrim too? I got the idea from an old RPG called Gothic. Its trading system is closer to barter, where currency is just one of the trade goods and you can buy things without having any in your inventory (or sell things without vendor having any). I'm going to implement a very similar system in my game.

Gothic I, II and III had a problem though, the player's inventory had unlimited carrying capacity. But then again, the game was developed having this into consideration. The player would need already to travel back and forth from to many places, so having limited carrying capacity would had made it 10x worst as far as travelling time went. Anyway Gothic 2 is probably my favorite RPG of all time.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 08:07:55 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2014, 07:54:13 PM »
Good point, that's the dissimilarity I wrote about earlier. In my project there won't be shops, but instead the player will be able to trade with every friendly NPC. The catch is that they won't buy anything they don't need (for example, a fellow adventurer might want to buy a better weapon and some food).

I'm trying to imagine that system at play and I'm somehow feeling already frustrated with it. I mean, imagine you want to sell a sword, you will need to go around seeing if anyone wants to buy it. How many NPC are we talking about? How often their needs change? Won't selling stuff this way turn out to be some kind of gambling and a time consuming task? Now imagine you have many items you want to sell. Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:16:28 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2014, 08:20:35 PM »
@Aukustus

You probably have this in mind already but I just want to make sure. Another thing you can do is having each shop dealing with particular kinds of items. For example, an alchemist shop would only by and sell alchemy related items.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 08:22:14 PM by Endorya »
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Aukustus

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Re: Shops
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2014, 08:46:26 PM »
@Aukustus

You probably have this in mind already but I just want to make sure. Another thing you can do is having each shop dealing with particular kinds of items. For example, an alchemist shop would only by and sell alchemy related items.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. I'll see how large my game grows and if I'll make multiple shops.

rust

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Re: Shops
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2014, 06:50:27 AM »
I'm trying to imagine that system at play and I'm somehow feeling already frustrated with it. I mean, imagine you want to sell a sword, you will need to go around seeing if anyone wants to buy it. How many NPC are we talking about? How often their needs change? Won't selling stuff this way turn out to be some kind of gambling and a time consuming task? Now imagine you have many items you want to sell. Am I missing something?

This would be the case if the game would take place in an open world. Instead the game will feature only one dungeon, so if you descend then you'll always find someone to trade with, whether it's a lone adventurer, a group of miners, or somebody else. This also means that trading must be non-essential. Most of the stuff available to buy will be basic necessities that you'll be able to get on your own. Also, NPCs' demands won't be as strict as in my example, so you'll probably barter as much as you can in order to save up enough gold to buy a powerful item if you meet a trader with one.

Endorya

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Re: Shops
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2014, 08:12:58 AM »
This would be the case if the game would take place in an open world. Instead the game will feature only one dungeon, so if you descend then you'll always find someone to trade with, whether it's a lone adventurer, a group of miners, or somebody else. This also means that trading must be non-essential. Most of the stuff available to buy will be basic necessities that you'll be able to get on your own. Also, NPCs' demands won't be as strict as in my example, so you'll probably barter as much as you can in order to save up enough gold to buy a powerful item if you meet a trader with one.

Ah! That makes sense then. Yeah, I was envisioning it in an open world. I think your approach will work perfectly well from what you have just described.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 10:33:42 AM by Endorya »
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Aukustus

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Re: Shops
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2014, 05:50:04 PM »
I'm probably settling towards a system that has something like 5 random base items for sale which change on level up and 5 magical items which change when progressing in dungeon.

I have to change also my basic loot system since now leather armors drop only on the first 4 dungeon levels. They should drop all the way the whole dungeon but become rarer when heavier armor becomes available. Then I wouldn't need to make items which are not available any more available only from shops. Then I can just randomize all shops.