My two cents about Permadeath

[Vanguard]

Not if you can't be permanently killed.

You people are so pedantic.

[mushroom patch]

I don't think it's true that everyone save scums. For example, I never save scum -- ever. On the other hand, I am a big proponent of using spoilers.

Anyway, there's an easy way to enforce permadeath: Public telnet. libtcod and other non-console interfaces are a pox (although other libtcod functionality is nice for throwing together something generic). Roguelike games were meant to be played on multiuser systems. That's where they should stay. DCSS has been a huge success in considerable part because of its embrace of public, multiuser system-based gaming.

[rust]

And there is truth in there, but the question is whether it is worth the time and what good it is if 90% of the people will give up before ever completing it or even reaching to see more than 20% of the game.

Then they have to try harder. That's the charm of roguelikes.

[Vanguard]

And there is truth in there, but the question is whether it is worth the time and what good it is if 90% of the people will give up before ever completing it or even reaching to see more than 20% of the game.

They're difficult games by design.  Not everyone who plays is supposed to win.  Roguelikes would be boring if they were easy.

[LazyCat]

Then they have to try harder. That's the charm of roguelikes.

People don't mind trying harder, just starting all over. Rewind them one floor back and they will try harder.

[LazyCat]

They're difficult games by design.  Not everyone who plays is supposed to win.  Roguelikes would be boring if they were easy.

They don't have to be easy, just let people save like in any other normal game on this planet. There can always be "champion mode" with hard difficulty, double points and no saving allowed.

Or why not have some consumable item used for saving, like in Resident Evil. So you get limited number of save files per game and have to decide where is the best time and place to use them. It's more casual but still hardcore too.

[rust]

They don't have to be easy, just let people save like in any other normal game on this planet.

Then they will be easy. Roguelikes aren't that hard to play, instead they're difficult just because one stupid choice can make you die in a seemingly easy fight and you have to start over. Rewinding the player one floor back as you suggest wouldn't be enough punishment for them.

[Eben]

They don't have to be easy, just let people save like in any other normal game on this planet.

Then they will be easy. Roguelikes aren't that hard to play, instead they're difficult just because one stupid choice can make you die in a seemingly easy fight and you have to start over. Rewinding the player one floor back as you suggest wouldn't be enough punishment for them.

To me one of the masterstrokes of roguelikes is that they don't always have to be super carefully balanced, since one cocky moment takes your overpowered character to its doom.

[Vanguard]

They don't have to be easy, just let people save like in any other normal game on this planet.

All of those "normal" games are easy.  The ability to save freely destroys almost all difficulty in games.

[LazyCat]

Then they will be easy. Roguelikes aren't that hard to play, instead they're difficult just because one stupid choice can make you die in a seemingly easy fight and you have to start over. Rewinding the player one floor back as you suggest wouldn't be enough punishment for them.

Making it repetitive, tedious and annoying is indeed quite a punishment. Punishment to achieve what? Make it more fun? Fun is the opposite of what repetitive, tedious and annoying is.

Perhaps you have the time and actually enjoy torturing yourself like that, but majority of people don't. You can always not save and not continue, why would you mind if there is an option to do so for everyone else?

[LazyCat]

All of those "normal" games are easy.  The ability to save freely destroys almost all difficulty in games.

That is not game difficulty, but difficulty of learning a game. Save-scumming doesn't make you invincible, you still have to overcome all the challenges just the same, the only difference is you learn faster.

[Vanguard]

Save-scumming doesn't make you invincible

It basically does.  Every time you make a mistake or anything bad happens you go back in time and then it never happened.  All of your victories are preserved forever, and your failures never happened.

With save scumming, literally anyone can win an ADOM ultra ending and get a 2-All in DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.  For all intents and purposes, freesaving reduces difficulty to zero.

[rust]

Making it repetitive, tedious and annoying is indeed quite a punishment. Punishment to achieve what? Make it more fun? Fun is the opposite of what repetitive, tedious and annoying is.

Perhaps you have the time and actually enjoy torturing yourself like that, but majority of people don't. You can always not save and not continue, why would you mind if there is an option to do so for everyone else?

It's not repetitive, tedious or annoying if you start a brand new game with a brand new world every time you die. It is, though, when you load the game for the tenth time just to find yourself in the same place, with the same enemies around.
And if someone wants a game to hold them by their hand and give them lots of fun they don't have to work for, then there are a lot of other genres so they'll surely find something suitable.

[Zireael]

Permadeath is just a consequence of the inability to save scum.

It's more than that. You could generate passwords at the beginning of levels like older, other genres did, to avoid save-scumming but still save you some pain and progress. Permadeath is a complete restart.

I wouldn't say that Menzoberranzan or Eye of the Beholder are that much 'other genres'

[LazyCat]

It basically does.  Every time you make a mistake or anything bad happens you go back in time and then it never happened.  All of your victories are preserved forever, and your failures never happened.

With save scumming, literally anyone can win an ADOM ultra ending and get a 2-All in DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.  For all intents and purposes, freesaving reduces difficulty to zero.

No, saving does not change anything about game. It only allows you to learn faster.

What part do you disagree with?