Author Topic: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave  (Read 8312 times)

Squeeealer

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Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« on: November 29, 2013, 08:46:13 PM »
Hello,

With some exceptions, I have been playing The Ancient Cave sidequest in Lufia II via Gift Mode almost exclusively for about 13 years now.  I want to see what else is out there that is easy to access (like on a console). I am hoping for recommendations, especially from those familiar with The Ancient Cave.

What I like about the AC:

1.  Console game
2.  Turn-based
3.  Death takes away everything
4.  Classic RPG theme (I'm not into aliens, zombies, apocalyptic themes, etc)
5.  Uses tiles - strategy of learning enemy sprite movements and getting surprise attacks when possible
6.  Large amount of cool stuff to find in treasure chests - the sheer randomness of finding a rarity

What I also like about the AC is that it's easy to create new challenges for myself.  After beating the AC for the first time, I started challenging myself with the following in chronological order:

- all party combinations
- start from scratch (no use of the Blue Chest treasures that can be brought in from previous runs)
- 3-character, and then 2-character combinations (and some solo runs)
- KEE (kill every enemy)
- KEENID (kill every enemy, no use of instant death)

Then I started tracking at what experience level I finished. But these challenges would be even more fun had the game presented them to me and then rewarded me for completing them by unlocking features, characters, etc.

I am considering Shiren the Wanderer for Wii after seeing a favorable review on worthplaying.com. 

akeley

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 02:05:32 PM »
Well, that sounds rather interesting. I`ve never actually heard about that Ancient Cave quest. I`ve got an open save in first Lufia and play it occasionally, haven`t played the sequel yet though. From what I understand, AC sounds like one of the "secret" roguelike levels sometimes found in Japanese games. I think Disgaea has one too.

There`s also Quest Mode in PS1 classic Ehrgeiz - basically a 3D fighting game, but QM here is a proper RL, albeit a 3D real-time one.

Shiren and the rest of Mystery Dungeons are quite brilliant, if you like that sort of thing. Perhaps less complex than a "proper" (ahem) PC RL, these offer heaps of charm & quirk instead. My favourite is Izuna 1/2 on NDS.

Check this two links for more:

http://hg101.proboards.com/thread/6278

http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Console_roguelike

There`s also a slew of hybrid-likes on PSP: Z.H.P. Unlosing Ranger vs Darkdeath Evilman, Half Minute Hero, Adventures To Go!, Cladun: This is an RPG 1/2.

I`ve also just read that GBC version of Lufia - The Legend Returns, has another Ancient Cave quest, even bigger than Sinistrals, so you might want to look it up.

Gr3yling

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 08:19:20 AM »
According to Auron 402's FAQ on gamefaqs, you are quite renowned at navigating the ancient cave.  He says this, regarding you:

   Squeealer, who is definitely the most crazed Ancient Cave aficionado that I
   have ever encountered.  Squeealer has become so proficient at navigating the
   many perils of the Ancient Cave that just to keep things interesting, he not
   only refuses to use accumulated Blue Chest items, but he also sends Maxim in
   to the Cave ALONE!  I have probably learned more from him about the workings
   of the Ancient Cave than I have from anyone else, and I really enjoy being
   able to talk to someone who understands my fascination with the AC.  His
   very informative FAQ can now be found here on GameFAQs at 
   http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588451/43439
   Thanks for everything!

I'm very impressed.  And since you've been exploring the AC for 13 years(!!!???) now, perhaps this thread should really be about what advice would give to future roguelike game makers.  Given all your experience, how would you recommend they proceed in creating a roguelike?

Gr3yling

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 08:25:59 AM »
Hello,

With some exceptions, I have been playing The Ancient Cave sidequest in Lufia II via Gift Mode almost exclusively for about 13 years now.  I want to see what else is out there that is easy to access (like on a console). I am hoping for recommendations, especially from those familiar with The Ancient Cave.

What I like about the AC:

1.  Console game
2.  Turn-based
3.  Death takes away everything
4.  Classic RPG theme (I'm not into aliens, zombies, apocalyptic themes, etc)
5.  Uses tiles - strategy of learning enemy sprite movements and getting surprise attacks when possible
6.  Large amount of cool stuff to find in treasure chests - the sheer randomness of finding a rarity

What I also like about the AC is that it's easy to create new challenges for myself.  After beating the AC for the first time, I started challenging myself with the following in chronological order:

- all party combinations
- start from scratch (no use of the Blue Chest treasures that can be brought in from previous runs)
- 3-character, and then 2-character combinations (and some solo runs)
- KEE (kill every enemy)
- KEENID (kill every enemy, no use of instant death)

Oh, and I have one more question, just out of curiosity.  Even if it didn't conform to all your specifications, would you be open to a game were hope itself didn't exist, at least until you discovered it?  If so, I have suggestion for you.

Squeeealer

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2013, 04:37:47 PM »
According to Auron 402's FAQ on gamefaqs, you are quite renowned at navigating the ancient cave.  He says this, regarding you:

   Squeealer, who is definitely the most crazed Ancient Cave aficionado that I
   have ever encountered.  Squeealer has become so proficient at navigating the
   many perils of the Ancient Cave that just to keep things interesting, he not
   only refuses to use accumulated Blue Chest items, but he also sends Maxim in
   to the Cave ALONE!  I have probably learned more from him about the workings
   of the Ancient Cave than I have from anyone else, and I really enjoy being
   able to talk to someone who understands my fascination with the AC.  His
   very informative FAQ can now be found here on GameFAQs at 
   http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588451/43439
   Thanks for everything!

I'm very impressed.  And since you've been exploring the AC for 13 years(!!!???) now, perhaps this thread should really be about what advice would give to future roguelike game makers.  Given all your experience, how would you recommend they proceed in creating a roguelike?

It's okay to have an ending point in your roguelike. I always chuckle when, after completing a tough run, someone will ask me if I defeated the Master Jelly (the cave's final boss). Who cares? The 8ish hour journey of making it to floor 99 was the success and satisfaction.

Keep us coming back. Roguelikes already have a built-in replay value because when you "win," you've really only beaten that one randomly generated dungeon. You haven't beaten all the other infinite number of possibilities. But I realize most gamers need more than that. I still get a thrill when I find a Blue Chest (rare chest item) or find a Treasure Room (cluster of treasures protected by a horde of enemies), so rare little surprises like that are important to me. The more rare stuff that can happen with the insane randomness of roguelikes keeps me coming back and hoping I see something I've never seen before. Some gamers will play the AC just to collect all ten Iris Treasures, even though it is a well-known fact that doing so earns you nothing. So in that case, the gamer just needed the challenge presented to them even with no hope of actual reward!

What is also important to me is improving my game, accomplishing something I've never accomplished before, and tracking my accomplishments. I also think a game could reward me for these accomplishments by unlocking characters, features, etc as I've said before.

Here are a couple of excerpts from my FAQ.  (At the end of my FAQ I talk about ways the AC could be improved):

Here are some challenge ideas that help you unlock fun stuff. These could be selected before the run, or the game could just recognize that you've done them:

- Getting to floor 99 with a short party (including solo)
- Getting to floor 99 in a certain amount of time
- Getting to floor 99 with no characters having fallen in battle
- Getting to floor 99 with selecting "no instant death" option
- Getting to floor 99 with selecting "bring in no Blue Chests" option
- Getting to floor 99 with selecting "Red Chests only" option
- Getting to floor 99 having used no healing spells
- Getting to floor 99 having used no IP effects
- Getting to floor 99 having defeated every enemy
- Getting to floor 99 having never escaped battle
- Getting to floor 99 having KEE while never escaping battle
- Getting to floor 99 having KEE while averaging less than X turns per battle
- Getting to floor 99 having KEE while averaging less than X rounds per battle

And to help me track my accomplishments:

J.  AC SUMMARY

At the end of the main quest we get something I think is really cool - a summary of your accomplishments throughout the game.  Of course, my FAVORITE is the AC Summary page.

I'm suggesting a revamped and bigger AC summary providing stats for your just completed run, and also your all-time stats.  Each run, whether successful or not, could provide you with ratings in different categories and ranking you, thus providing the player with a way of gauging their AC abilities.  Here are some ideas:

- total escapes
- total enemy encounters
- total number of enemies defeated plus a collapsable list of all enemies defeated
- total number of enemies that were summoned in battle
- Red Chest report including list of all finds and categorizes them by commons/uncommons/rares
- Blue Chest report
- dropped items report
- total HP pads plus shows if you missed any
- total Treasure Rooms and a special Treasure Rooms report
- spells not found
- healing report including how many times each healing spell or healing IP effect was used
- attack spells report
- IP effects report
- give us a way to save these summaries

I think the toughest part of making a roguelike would be making the gameplay interesting, dynamic, and even quirky, but all without bogging it down. It's such a fine line and partly depends on the person playing the game.

One thing that Lufia II has going for it is that you become familiar with the characters, gameplay, battle systems, etc. via the main quest. So when you start playing the AC sidequest you've already got some idea of how to play.

"Possibly the best thing about these challenges is how they uncover more of the true beauty of this game.  It is amazing how detailed and how much effort went into the strategy of battles.  It absolutely boggles my mind how they could waste such a superlative effort by making the normal quest such a low difficulty level that you barely see the tip of the iceberg in terms of the intricacy."

I'm not really clear there when I say strategy of battles.  There is a long list of weapons, armor, items, etc that all have unique functions and usefulness. To this day I am still discovering things about this game.

Squeeealer

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2013, 05:00:29 PM »
Oh, and I have one more question, just out of curiosity.  Even if it didn't conform to all your specifications, would you be open to a game were hope itself didn't exist, at least until you discovered it?  If so, I have suggestion for you.

Hope of what?  "Defeating" the dungeon?

Here are two of my goals with each run:

- to understand the game better so that the next time I go in I'll be even better.  For example - enemy stats, enemy strength and weaknesses, characteristics, elemental properties, and uses for my stuff (weapons, armor, items, etc.)

- to play as flawlessly as I possibly can so that when I die it was a case of being beaten by the randomness of the game or I just plain got to a point where I couldn't win.  That is somewhat satisfying to me.

But you also said "to my specifications."  I really think I prefer turn-based.  I want my survival to depend on my mental dexterity, not my finger dexterity.  I want to think my way through battles.  The rest is negotiable.

guest509

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 05:45:53 AM »
Of the ones listed you might also check out Powder. Also ToMe and Adom.

Legend

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Re: Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals - The Ancient Cave
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 07:18:29 AM »
Fatal Labyrinth for Sega Genesis/Mega Drive is a pretty good console roguelike/rpg. I enjoy it quite a bit. I think you may like it.