Author Topic: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?  (Read 26640 times)

Gr3yling

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2013, 02:14:48 AM »
By pretending it doesn't exist, as Krice so elegantly demonstrated in his latest comments ;) I say this being born and raised in Norway, which is one of the world's "most democratic" countries by any standard.

So, what country in that area (Sweden, Norway, Finland) is the most welcoming to outsiders and the easiest to integrate into, language and culture wise? 

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2013, 03:08:08 PM »
It must be Sweden, because they have taken lot of foreigners there, including us! However it has not been as smooth as was planned, because of the clash of cultures. As a warning Finland is not that allowing and has restricted the amount of refugees.

Norway is kind of special case, because it's so ridiculous country even in scandinavian context. If refugees want to go in that country full of nothing - only rocky landscape and fjords then let it be so. Norwegians don't have to do anything, because they have oil. And they haven't accomplished anything.

AgingMinotaur

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 805
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • Original Discriminating Buffalo Man
    • View Profile
    • Land of Strangers
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2013, 10:44:48 PM »
Ha ha, Krice hit the nail on the head with regards to Norway. Add that Norwegians are ridiculously proud of their rock-atop-some-grease and generally whining about having to receive refugees, who are generally considered gold diggers :P Mind you, anyone who is white (sorry, I mean pink) and neither muslim nor roma will mostly feel welcome in the Nordic countries. Failing to meet any of those criteria will inevitably set you up with the whole spectrum of racist encounters, though. It may be less blatant in Sweden, where antiracist sentiments are strong in media and to a certain extent in mainstream politics (even though the police practice racial profiling and monitors Swedish gypsies as a "suspect group"). In Denmark and Norway, however, xonophobia has run rampant for about a decade.

Pretty much like anywhere else, in other words. Social security is still pretty strong overall, and people are people, you know (stupid, smart, good, evil). All in all, I'm grateful for the fact that my own kids have the privilege of Norwegian passports (of course unless that means they'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes ;))

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

akeley

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 348
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2013, 09:33:32 AM »
This thread was amusing in its early, surreal stage. Now it made me kinda depressed. Especially the "we give them sooo much $$$ but the stupid savages only breed more" bullshit.

Funny, I`ve been a member of a few niche boards like this over the years and there`s always a Krice. Just one per board - and yet their shock-jockeying tactics manage to suck others in, often revealing angles I`d rather not know about.

I come here partially with the purpose about forgetting about the awful things that go on in the real world, so probably it`d be wise to avoid this section from now on.

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2013, 10:35:49 AM »
Especially the "we give them sooo much $$$ but the stupid savages only breed more" bullshit.

If it was BS then "the savages" would already have fixed the problems in their countries. Which really has not happened. Each country has their own responsibility to handle their issues the best they can, but it's obvious that many countries in Africa (just an example) has a lot of problems to solve. And what's more it's been even more obvious that money -only- can't solve those problems. We need to look at these things without any kind of subjective opinions.

And to make it clear I hate both kind of people: those who still blame western countries for what is happening in Africa right now as well as true racists who somehow still exists today even we should know better.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 10:40:19 AM by Krice »

Gr3yling

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2013, 05:50:46 AM »
It may be less blatant in Sweden, where antiracist sentiments are strong in media and to a certain extent in mainstream politics (even though the police practice racial profiling and monitors Swedish gypsies as a "suspect group"). In Denmark and Norway, however, xonophobia has run rampant for about a decade.

That's really sad, Minotauros.  And yes, I do realize that xenophobia is very much a reality in the USA also.  However, xenophobia is still tragic, no matter where it is occurring.  What do you think is the driving factor behind it in Scandinavian countries?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 08:20:37 AM by Gr3yling »

AgingMinotaur

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 805
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • Original Discriminating Buffalo Man
    • View Profile
    • Land of Strangers
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2013, 12:59:27 PM »
What do you think is the driving factor behind it in Scandinavian countries?
That's no easy question, to say the least. I think a myriad of different perspectives are needed to compose something even close to a complete picture. Since you ask, I'll try to offer some of my own, though. It's gonna be a behemoth post, and probably to be taken with a shipload of salt.

On some level, these things might just take time. Norway, for instance, didn't see much immigration in modern times, until an influx of mainly Pakistani migration in the 70's. At this time, Norway needed the work force, but I guess a lot of native Norwegians still felt uncomfortable around persons with a different skin tone, culture and language than themselves. I'm sure this feeling of strangeness that many experience(d) will fade to a certain extent. Looking at my own kids, who are growing up in a socalled "multicultural" part of Berlin, they don't see anything weird about the fact that some adults has a hijab or a big old patriarch's beard, or that not all their friends at kindergarten are blond and wearing Lederhosen. However, I see a big problem with cultural segregation (here in Germany as well as in the Scandinavian countries). This goes both ways, as many natives are not keen on making the effort to understand the situation and mindsets of immigrants, and many immigrants also tend to the relative security of socializing with other expatriots from the same region/country as themselves. Official policies do little to help people mix, so in cities like Oslo, we've ended up some parts of the city being "ghettoized" (I don't like that term myself, but it's commonly used). A bad circle starts to form, where ethnic Norwegians stay away from areas with a high immigrant population, which leads to further ostracizing the immigrants. This is especially true for people with kids, I think. For instance, it becomes somehow a self fulfilling prophesy that schools with many immigrant children are badly integrated, with more violent/uneasy kids and a lower academic level than schools in whiter, posher areas. To break this pattern, it would obviously be necessary introduce more native kids in immigrant-heavy schools and vice versa, but instead we see the opposite happen (native Norwegian parents send their kids to the whiter schools, serving to solidify the divide even more).

I personally believe that most of the responsibility when it comes to successfully integrating Non-western immigrants does lie with the natives and the government. Of course, coming to a strange country you'll have to adapt, and a lot of people who arrive in the Nordic countries should be better at this. Still, there's the question of who is sitting on the resources here. Since decades back, the only Non-western immigrants allowed into Norway are refugees, in other words people who come from a really bad situation. Very few Scandinavians seem to grasp the significance of this. For instance, in the late 90's we had an influx of Yugoslavian refugees, fleeing one of the most atrocious wars in the history of mankind. To most Norwegians, these people were just considered a problematic group. They've been perceived as prone to acts of crime, their children disbehaving and doing badly at school, etc. An easy analysis is that they're simply bad people with an inferior culture (hey, it's summed up in a single sentence; problem solved). Not much effort is being made to try and understand how being the victim of unthinkable crimes makes it difficult to handle quotidian life afterwards. The comfy view of many Norwegians goes something like: "Well, it's not as if we asked them to come. They just showed up out of the blue, so it's their job to adapt." On the other hand, I think most people wouldn't make a lot of demands before helping someone who was bleeding to death on the street. And they fail to realize that the situation can be just as dire for refugees. Even if you're not arriving directly from the war zone, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it can be a trial to come to Norway from a Somali refugee camp, for instance, especially when you're met with general scepticism and racism on an institutional as well as a general level. However, that perspective is not often brought to the discussion.

So many factors come into play here. It's interesting to note that in the US, Somalis are generally considered hardworking good folks. In Norway, they have a bad reputation as khat chewing, wife beating criminals. How this has come to be, is frankly beyond me, but people with more knowledge could provide a better answer.

At the far end of the power spectrum, there is a real tendency for a lot of the political parties (on the left as well as the right) to use people's fears and insecurities to gain voters' support. Populism, of course, is one of the oldest tricks in politics, but it's not easy to fight. People who are against racism have not been good enough at refuting racist rhetorics, instead trying to offer alternative analyses just as simplistic. The xenophobes keep claiming that most muslims are out to impose Sharia law in Norway and that roma/gypsies are "parasites" on the welfare system, while a bunch of the antiracists hold there are no problems with immigration whatsoever. Of course, really understanding the problems demand a lot of thought, so it's much more convenient to buy into one of the black-white versions. The mainstream media mostly makes the problem even worse, as by the same token, thorough analysis doesn't sell papers as well as bombastic headlines. For instance, many Norwegian newspaper have lately been reporting on an alleged "wave of robberies" in Oslo, where the majority of perpetrators are presumed to be immigrants. In reality, statisticians have been refuting this, pointing to how the numbers actually show a generally stable amount of robberies in Oslo over the last years (the "crime wave" shows if you only take into account the numbers for the last few months). But for every page ten scientific article refuting the premises of the crime wave, there are half a dozen first page stories about people who have been robbed by "a man of foreign origin".

This is still just the tip of one of many icebergs, but this post is already long enough. In conclusion, there are of course real problems and challenges presented by immigration, but there's not much willingness to take them on in a proper fashion. The situation feels pretty locked in Scandinavia, and almost hopeless in Europe as a whole, with most people just closing their eyes to the very real fascism on the rise again in countries like Greece and Hungary. In Norway, most people aren't so much racists (not even the populist party scoring most points on xenophobic rhetorics, FRP), but they're pretty conservative – I'd say somehow comparable to hobbits – as in thinking: "Why should I jeopardize my comfort in helping my neighbor?" Still, we want the cheap fruits and electronics produced by exploited people all over the world, but just don't want to see the connection between that and the responsibility to help your fellow human beings (a responsibility I'd have thought self evident, no matter "who is to blame" for this or that). So it goes, the current government wants to accept fewer refugees on the grounds that "we should help them where they are", while still cutting development aids, and continuing to make money off of weapons export. So … go figure, I guess …

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

AgingMinotaur

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 805
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • Original Discriminating Buffalo Man
    • View Profile
    • Land of Strangers
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2013, 01:05:31 PM »
Now, if that doesn't kill this thread, I'd be hard pressed to come up with something that does ;)

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

miki151

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 264
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2013, 01:54:06 PM »
No, you didn't kill the thread, maybe just pacified it :). I'm curious, are there any efforts by the government in Norway to integrate the immigrants into the society? I think it's pretty obvious that letting the immigrants form ghettos leads to trouble, but yet few countries do anything about it. Just the opposite, they don't even encourage them to learn the local language. Or maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that many countries are becoming multilingual. I know that Switzerland would be a counterexample, but I think that's not the way to go.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 01:55:59 PM by miki151 »
KeeperRL, Dungeon Keeper in roguelike style:
http://keeperrl.com

Gr3yling

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2013, 05:39:33 AM »
Thanks for taking the time to explain that, Aging Minotaur.

For instance, it becomes somehow a self fulfilling prophesy that schools with many immigrant children are badly integrated, with more violent/uneasy kids and a lower academic level than schools in whiter, posher areas.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, actually.


AgingMinotaur

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 805
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • Original Discriminating Buffalo Man
    • View Profile
    • Land of Strangers
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2013, 01:01:04 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to explain that, Aging Minotaur.
You're welcome :) Of course, lots more could be said, and many people would disagree totally with what I said.

I'm curious, are there any efforts by the government in Norway to integrate the immigrants into the society?
There are some programs aimed to ease integration, although I must say I'm not sure about the details. I think refugees who get their applications accepted are offered language courses, for instance. I personally have the feeling we'd need some fresh ideas, though. There isn't much political imagination to go around these days, and many current issues seem to demand thinking out of the box.

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2013, 02:09:53 PM »
The problem is that there is lot of talk about "integration" but I think it's not something that will happen or that it's easily achieved. We already have a great example of ethnic group that really did not integrate well: romanis. They still pretty much live their ancient culture and refuse to integrate. Such strong culture background should be carefully remembered when talking about integration that possibly will never happen. I think this is also the reason why there has been problems with different ethnic/cultural groups. If you put two of those in the same country it's either bad or very bad idea.

Gr3yling

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2013, 10:12:27 PM »
The problem is that there is lot of talk about "integration" but I think it's not something that will happen or that it's easily achieved. We already have a great example of ethnic group that really did not integrate well: romanis. They still pretty much live their ancient culture and refuse to integrate. Such strong culture background should be carefully remembered when talking about integration that possibly will never happen. I think this is also the reason why there has been problems with different ethnic/cultural groups. If you put two of those in the same country it's either bad or very bad idea.

Krice, what if you were a member of a cultural group like the ones you described and you wanted to move to Finland to start a better life?  Wouldn't you want to be given a chance?  I mean, you say that Finland is the greatest country in the world.  So, doesn't it make sense to you that people would want to move there?

Just out of curiousity, do you know any Romanis personally?  Or have you had some sort of bad experience an individual from that group in the past that colors your views of them?

Again, I know the US has it's share of immigration problems, so I'm certainly not trying to say that we are somehow "better" than Finland.  I'm just trying to better understand your personal perspective on these issues.

guest509

  • Guest
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2013, 05:07:51 AM »
Lol Gr3yling. What are you doing man? I'll help you understand his motives.

Race: Troll.
Class: Dark Paladin.
Status: Hungry.

He's 3 turns from YASD due to the food clock, and you are feeding him.  ;)


EDIT: Let it be known I actually like Krice. Releasing a fully featured game, being a good programmer and being actually helpful to the community forgives any bullshit political sins.

guest509

  • Guest
Re: Is England world's biggest open-air museum?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2013, 05:28:05 AM »
What do you think is the driving factor behind it in Scandinavian countries?
That's no easy question, to say the least. I think a myriad of different perspectives are needed to compose something even close to a complete picture. Since you ask, I'll try to offer some of my own, though. It's gonna be a behemoth post, and probably to be taken with a shipload of salt.

On some level, these things might just take time. Norway, for instance, didn't see much immigration in modern times, until an influx of mainly Pakistani migration in the 70's. At this time, Norway needed the work force, but I guess a lot of native Norwegians still felt uncomfortable around persons with a different skin tone, culture and language than themselves. I'm sure this feeling of strangeness that many experience(d) will fade to a certain extent. Looking at my own kids, who are growing up in a socalled "multicultural" part of Berlin, they don't see anything weird about the fact that some adults has a hijab or a big old patriarch's beard, or that not all their friends at kindergarten are blond and wearing Lederhosen. However, I see a big problem with cultural segregation (here in Germany as well as in the Scandinavian countries). This goes both ways, as many natives are not keen on making the effort to understand the situation and mindsets of immigrants, and many immigrants also tend to the relative security of socializing with other expatriots from the same region/country as themselves. Official policies do little to help people mix, so in cities like Oslo, we've ended up some parts of the city being "ghettoized" (I don't like that term myself, but it's commonly used). A bad circle starts to form, where ethnic Norwegians stay away from areas with a high immigrant population, which leads to further ostracizing the immigrants. This is especially true for people with kids, I think. For instance, it becomes somehow a self fulfilling prophesy that schools with many immigrant children are badly integrated, with more violent/uneasy kids and a lower academic level than schools in whiter, posher areas. To break this pattern, it would obviously be necessary introduce more native kids in immigrant-heavy schools and vice versa, but instead we see the opposite happen (native Norwegian parents send their kids to the whiter schools, serving to solidify the divide even more).

I personally believe that most of the responsibility when it comes to successfully integrating Non-western immigrants does lie with the natives and the government. Of course, coming to a strange country you'll have to adapt, and a lot of people who arrive in the Nordic countries should be better at this. Still, there's the question of who is sitting on the resources here. Since decades back, the only Non-western immigrants allowed into Norway are refugees, in other words people who come from a really bad situation. Very few Scandinavians seem to grasp the significance of this. For instance, in the late 90's we had an influx of Yugoslavian refugees, fleeing one of the most atrocious wars in the history of mankind. To most Norwegians, these people were just considered a problematic group. They've been perceived as prone to acts of crime, their children disbehaving and doing badly at school, etc. An easy analysis is that they're simply bad people with an inferior culture (hey, it's summed up in a single sentence; problem solved). Not much effort is being made to try and understand how being the victim of unthinkable crimes makes it difficult to handle quotidian life afterwards. The comfy view of many Norwegians goes something like: "Well, it's not as if we asked them to come. They just showed up out of the blue, so it's their job to adapt." On the other hand, I think most people wouldn't make a lot of demands before helping someone who was bleeding to death on the street. And they fail to realize that the situation can be just as dire for refugees. Even if you're not arriving directly from the war zone, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it can be a trial to come to Norway from a Somali refugee camp, for instance, especially when you're met with general scepticism and racism on an institutional as well as a general level. However, that perspective is not often brought to the discussion.

So many factors come into play here. It's interesting to note that in the US, Somalis are generally considered hardworking good folks. In Norway, they have a bad reputation as khat chewing, wife beating criminals. How this has come to be, is frankly beyond me, but people with more knowledge could provide a better answer.

At the far end of the power spectrum, there is a real tendency for a lot of the political parties (on the left as well as the right) to use people's fears and insecurities to gain voters' support. Populism, of course, is one of the oldest tricks in politics, but it's not easy to fight. People who are against racism have not been good enough at refuting racist rhetorics, instead trying to offer alternative analyses just as simplistic. The xenophobes keep claiming that most muslims are out to impose Sharia law in Norway and that roma/gypsies are "parasites" on the welfare system, while a bunch of the antiracists hold there are no problems with immigration whatsoever. Of course, really understanding the problems demand a lot of thought, so it's much more convenient to buy into one of the black-white versions. The mainstream media mostly makes the problem even worse, as by the same token, thorough analysis doesn't sell papers as well as bombastic headlines. For instance, many Norwegian newspaper have lately been reporting on an alleged "wave of robberies" in Oslo, where the majority of perpetrators are presumed to be immigrants. In reality, statisticians have been refuting this, pointing to how the numbers actually show a generally stable amount of robberies in Oslo over the last years (the "crime wave" shows if you only take into account the numbers for the last few months). But for every page ten scientific article refuting the premises of the crime wave, there are half a dozen first page stories about people who have been robbed by "a man of foreign origin".

This is still just the tip of one of many icebergs, but this post is already long enough. In conclusion, there are of course real problems and challenges presented by immigration, but there's not much willingness to take them on in a proper fashion. The situation feels pretty locked in Scandinavia, and almost hopeless in Europe as a whole, with most people just closing their eyes to the very real fascism on the rise again in countries like Greece and Hungary. In Norway, most people aren't so much racists (not even the populist party scoring most points on xenophobic rhetorics, FRP), but they're pretty conservative – I'd say somehow comparable to hobbits – as in thinking: "Why should I jeopardize my comfort in helping my neighbor?" Still, we want the cheap fruits and electronics produced by exploited people all over the world, but just don't want to see the connection between that and the responsibility to help your fellow human beings (a responsibility I'd have thought self evident, no matter "who is to blame" for this or that). So it goes, the current government wants to accept fewer refugees on the grounds that "we should help them where they are", while still cutting development aids, and continuing to make money off of weapons export. So … go figure, I guess …

As always,
Minotauros

This.