Author Topic: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?  (Read 25731 times)

deathknight1728

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Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« on: March 25, 2013, 01:22:15 AM »
I have been loving dungeons of dredmor lately not just because of its incredibly awesome skill/lvling system, but because it gives you the option of not having permadeath. I know many will automatically label me as a coward and weak gamer, but I find that I can enjoy the game a bit more.

Does anyone know of any rogue likes like dredmor that give the option to not have it? Its a shame because rogue likes in general have more roleplaying/stats and what not than most regular rpgs Ive played. Gawd!!

Darren Grey

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 02:25:20 AM »
Tales of Maj'Eyal would be the most obvious - it's a huge game with an optional lives system.  If you donate you can get Explorer Mode, which gives you infinite lives.

For something smaller check out PrincessRL.  It sends you back to the town if you die, though this can still be a hindrance to character development.

deathknight1728

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 03:22:47 AM »
Its kind of lame for me because I really liked getting into the game demo "The Pit", but the one thing keeping me from buying it is the thing that will likely make it impossible to complete the game on easy. Its too bad because Dredmor allows you to play it however you want. Its a shame that one thing can't be made as an option. I used to play Doom the Rl but it got boring to play back and forth because whats the point of playing a game where my character will expire at any time.

kraflab

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 04:08:44 AM »
Its kind of lame for me because I really liked getting into the game demo "The Pit", but the one thing keeping me from buying it is the thing that will likely make it impossible to complete the game on easy. Its too bad because Dredmor allows you to play it however you want. Its a shame that one thing can't be made as an option. I used to play Doom the Rl but it got boring to play back and forth because whats the point of playing a game where my character will expire at any time.

Your character is going to expire at the end of every game.  It's not about the destination.  Of course, if you also don't like the journey...

Anyway, I double DGrey's ToME4 nomination.  The game is much more rpg-like than most roguelikes, and quality-wise it is worth a donation for infinite lives if that is the road you want to take.

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 08:48:51 AM »
Legerdemain has checkpoints that you are simply returned to upon death, if I recall correctly. Starting from the inn in the first village. I guess this is because the game features a lot of fixed content, that you wouldn't want to replay. Concerning other games, err, you can always savescum ^.^

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Darren Grey

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 10:08:28 AM »
Yeah, savescumming is very viable in many games. I first got into ADOM with a lot of savescumming.

Krice

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 11:00:23 AM »
Does anyone know of any rogue likes like dredmor that give the option to not have it?

Yes, those games are called regular role-playing games, or RPGs. Roguelikes on the other hand are all about permadeath. It's possibly the most important feature of a roguelike.

guest509

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 02:38:39 AM »
For me the definition of roguelike is a game that uses the interplay between permadeath and procedural content to create interesting player decisions. Understanding that interplay is the main challenge in designing a roguelike.

I try to solve it by creating 'common rare occurrences'. Like in KlingonRL you can happen upon a system with no gas giants (low fuel), Romulans, Space Whales, Tons of Pirates, No Pirates, Starbases or None. You'll never see everything in one game. You might not ever see the Romulans. But the point is that even if you die, it's no biggie because the next game will be all new challenges.

The other main design challenge is making it so the character knows why they died so they can adjust for next time. Eventually a player will play enough that they know how to beat enough of the challenges they can beat the game. Thus achieving mastery.

Other permadeath genres solve the issue in other ways. Arcade games might have multiple lives, but they have permafailure too. No saving in an arcade game. They solve this issue by making the game EXACTLY the same each time so that a player can hone their skills to superhuman precision.

Strategy games have permafailure as well, but most commonly they allow saving and reloading. It is common, however, to play a game on Hardcore and not allow reloading. Play Battle for Wesnoth this way and watch your play experience deepen to fantastic levels. Make sure you put it on easy mode though, that game is brutal.

Understanding that's how the game is designed and appreciating it is a challenge for many (most) players.
Making all of that stuff actually fun is another thing altogether.

So to the question of a roguelike without Permadeath, what you are really asking for is a hybrid. An RPG with procedural content. That can still be a fun game, but it will not have the core trait that makes a roguelike interesting. It can, however, have that core trait that makes an RPG interesting. Which is the ability to develop a character to fantastic levels without having to worry about losing. You just can't lose in an RPG, kinda stress free.

BTW if you are looking to go the other way, to keep permadeath but ditch procedural content, then you are in luck. Any RPG can be played in this way. Any game can, really. There was a dude that played Far Cry that way.

Eben

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 08:06:27 AM »
The Mystery Dungeon series of games have a nice mix of consequences for death, but not resetting you back to the beginning of the game. Chocobo Mystery Dungeon is my favorite so far, primarily for the cute factor.

For a short game to get into, PrincessRL gets my vote as well.

mushroom patch

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 06:55:58 AM »
krice: "roguelikes are all about permadeath"

Uh huh. You know, if you play your "roguelikes" on a local system, you never really have permadeath. You can bail on the concept at any time if you find yourself too attached to your character to let it go.

Maybe you play all your games on a server where you have no privileged access, for example the main crawl server, but somehow I doubt it. If I'm right, you shouldn't be beating your chest about your purity of roguelike spirit. If you're not playing it on a university network dumb terminal or something damn similar, you're just another sentimental poseur, imo.

But please, tell us more about what roguelikes are all about. I understand you like tiles...

Vanguard

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2013, 07:38:51 AM »
Play PrincessRL!  It's great and while it does penalize you for losing all of your health, it doesn't have permadeath.  Getting to the end is pretty easy, but getting the best ending is not.

guest509

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2013, 09:29:22 AM »
krice: "roguelikes are all about permadeath"

Uh huh. You know, if you play your "roguelikes" on a local system, you never really have permadeath. You can bail on the concept at any time if you find yourself too attached to your character to let it go.

Maybe you play all your games on a server where you have no privileged access, for example the main crawl server, but somehow I doubt it. If I'm right, you shouldn't be beating your chest about your purity of roguelike spirit. If you're not playing it on a university network dumb terminal or something damn similar, you're just another sentimental poseur, imo.

But please, tell us more about what roguelikes are all about. I understand you like tiles...

Didn't take you long to bump into Krice. You get used to him. :-)

kraflab

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 11:25:41 PM »
krice: "roguelikes are all about permadeath"

Uh huh. You know, if you play your "roguelikes" on a local system, you never really have permadeath. You can bail on the concept at any time if you find yourself too attached to your character to let it go.

Maybe you play all your games on a server where you have no privileged access, for example the main crawl server, but somehow I doubt it. If I'm right, you shouldn't be beating your chest about your purity of roguelike spirit. If you're not playing it on a university network dumb terminal or something damn similar, you're just another sentimental poseur, imo.

But please, tell us more about what roguelikes are all about. I understand you like tiles...

Why are people so afraid of genres?  Genres are all about classification.  If someone hands me a new game and says "check out my roguelike!" and it is an rpg, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.  You shouldn't call a red apple green because it will give people the wrong expectations.  Krice may be a bit crazy, but he preaches the truth here.  Take a roguelike and remove permadeath and you do indeed have a turn-based rpg.  If people were getting boxed in by genre classifications then I would say it is a dangerous thing, but even a very shallow glance at the current state of roguelike development shows that this is not even remotely the case.  Things are blooming and expanding in all directions.

P.S. Calling terminals dumb makes you look pretty asinine.  This forum is heavy in computer scientists you know ;)

guest509

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2013, 11:36:32 PM »
  There's nothing at all wrong with a turnbased RPG either. Nothing at all. It's a different experience though, all about character building and/or story. Not about learning and dying. I like them both quite a bit. I especially liked Diablo and the various clones of that game, action RPG. Played on Hardcore it nearly scratches the roguelike itch...nearly...

mushroom patch

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Re: Any Non-perma death Rlikes?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 05:40:33 AM »
Quote
P.S. Calling terminals dumb makes you look pretty asinine.  This forum is heavy in computer scientists you know

Computer scientists who don't know what a dumb terminal is? I better watch out.

Here, let me Google that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_terminal#Dumb_terminal
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:44:14 AM by mushroom patch »