Replayability

[Darren Grey]

I can point you at lots of shit old games and lots of cool new games.  And vice-versa of course.  Wallow in nostalgia if you want, but objecting to anything new because you don't like what you've heard from other people about World of Warcraft... well, that's no way to discuss serious design in my opinion.  You're blindly criticising things you know little about purely because you know little about them.

FTL has lots of "explore the grass yourself" gameplay and unexpected results of interactions.  The achievements point you towards some of these, but they don't hold your hand or rail-road you.  It's a very open game, with a lot of excellent and progressive design.

Don't be afraid of new things.  Fear will hold you prisoner, hope will set you free 

[Nymphaea]

World of Warcraft is definitely not something I like, but not all games are bad these days. Actually quite a few are very fun, and have hidden systems for players to learn and break. The damage systems in most games are a good example, people will experiment to figure out the most accurate equations and pick their equipment and skills based on it, to try breaking the damage system.

Another example is the pokemon games, which have been going on for quite a while. 2 of the many hidden systems are the "IV" and "EV" systems. IVs (Inherit Values) are basically the pokemon's genetics, and these can be bred for. Again though, calculations are needed to figure out roughly what the genetics are, because the game doesn't outright tell you them. EVs (Effort Values) are gained from training, improving certain stats. Without knowing these systems people can play normally, but knowing them you can tune your strategy and train a pokemon stronger than the game intended.

Just a few examples, but it's not hard to add things like this. I do agree, though, that a lot of games are missing the fun little easter eggs and bugs that make them fun, but hey, thats what the indie scene is for, adding things we want back in

[Ancient]

UglyTroll has a point. The badges and medals of DoomRL shoehorn you into playing challenge games to prove yourself. The most fun is the standard game - where anything might happen and you are not artificially constrained in any way besides what you place yourself. If I have been playing pacifist and suddenly there is opportunity to score a quadruple kill why forbid me to drop the pacifist hat?

Checking for conducts is one thing. Kill list and other such statistics can be fun to track. However, in my opinion offering these as a separate game mode is going too far. The player is much better judge when it comes to predicting what will give him more fun. At the same time players are easily lured into "collect this shiny badge" mode. I dislike it because it artificially extends the game.

[Darren Grey]

Like any element of design it needs to be done well.  I'm not a big fan of DoomRL's system myself, though I think much of it was player-driven design.  Once a couple were in there was a push for more and more.  Some of the modes are quite nice, like the ones with much less levels.  They're game options rather than achievements in many ways.

And encouraging badge-collecting is usually bad.  You don't need to gamify a game.  Achievements should support the existing game rather than being an extra layer tacked on top of the system.

[TheCreator]

You're blindly criticising things you know little about purely because you know little about them.

Maybe I actually see more than you because I stay in the shadow and they (Blizzard marketing guys) cannot fire at me with their manipulation guns? Who knows. I lied about not playing any game. I played a lot of the GTA series, for example. It's an arcade game and it naturally has "achievements". To achieve 100% game completion you need to do some boring stuff, like robbing all stores or driving an ambulance. For me it's been always the best part of the game. But I don't think RLs are the same.

[Holsety]

I still feel failure and fun are the two main ingredients for replayability, but that could just be my love for arcade games talking. I didn't say it last time, but you definitely need both. If you didn't have fun before or during death (and there's a lot of death?) you might as well not play the game.

[Darren Grey]

Maybe I actually see more than you because I stay in the shadow and they (Blizzard marketing guys) cannot fire at me with their manipulation guns? Who knows.

Haha, I'm fairly sure I'm immune to any Blizzard marketing ammo.

I lied about not playing any game. I played a lot of the GTA series, for example. It's an arcade game and it naturally has "achievements". To achieve 100% game completion you need to do some boring stuff, like robbing all stores or driving an ambulance. For me it's been always the best part of the game.

Bleh, I hate that sort of thing.  The game shouldn't force you down the path of trying to get 100% and completing every little sidequest or boring task.  Achievements should encourage options, not enforce them.

Which is why I don't like XBox achievements, because they tie in with a stupid score system.

[jasonpickering]

wow, Man that's a lot of responses. I don't play Xbox, but I do play a lot of iOS games and they added achievements a while ago. I don't know why, but i always like the secret achievements where the achievement works as a hint. in Kingdom rush for example there was an achievement for finding the yeti on one level there is a Yeti frozen in ice. I couldn't figure out how to "Find the yeti" until I cast fireball on the ice, it shattered and I was now able to hire the yeti as a hero. I think doing vague achievements as a sort of hint for strange stuff could be fun. like maybe you have an achievement called "Atlantis" and then I notice I find a scroll of water breathing. well maybe I go to this lake and try out my scroll and walk into the water and I find a giant city to explore. Now this could all be accomplished in a million other ways in game, but its still good to think about stuff like this.

and now for a gripe. I recently released a game and I was shocked how many people wanted achievements. The game allows you to play and get a better rank, diamond being the best. People wanted an achievement saying they got diamond even though I gave them a large diamond idol in game. It seems achievements are slowly moving towards the realm of the skinner box. and people love to see that thing ppop up at the top and drive their player score up.

has any one played Bastion? it has something called idols, or something. I always thought they would be a good addition to a RL. They are similar to the skulls in Halo. you are given a large amount and you can turn any of them on or off, before you enter a level. you can have stuff like more enemies, stronger enemies, no magic, all enemies poison, enemies give double XP. letting the player mix and match these could be really cool.

[Holsety]

has any one played Bastion? it has something called idols, or something. I always thought they would be a good addition to a RL. They are similar to the skulls in Halo. you are given a large amount and you can turn any of them on or off, before you enter a level. you can have stuff like more enemies, stronger enemies, no magic, all enemies poison, enemies give double XP. letting the player mix and match these could be really cool.

Enemies drop bombs when you kill them, enemies regenerate if you're not attacking them, etc.
Yes, Bastion's idols were awesome and having something similar in a RL would be cool as all hell.

About achievements; they're only really relevant if you're playing a game while connected to some sort of online account (Steam/Xbox Live/Kongregate/Newgrounds etc etc etc).
If other people can't see your achievements they have no purpose, so putting achievements in singleplayer/offline RLs is so incredibly pointless.

[naughty]

Achievements don't have to follow the standard model of being online and your friends being able to see them.

For example a roguelike could track your progress and give you some encouragement when you die:

Congratulations You Died! But...

You got 1 level deeper than you previous best!
You beat your average time to the Dungeon of Woe and got there in 1:02.
You killed more than you average amount of Orcs!
You found the Trousers of Virtue for the first time!
You cast fireball 12 times, raising your total to 342!
You got revenge on Gas Flange the Bloated, who has killed you 5 times before.

[TheCreator]

You got 1 level deeper than you previous best!
You beat your average time to the Dungeon of Woe and got there in 1:02.
You killed more than you average amount of Orcs!
You found the Trousers of Virtue for the first time!
You cast fireball 12 times, raising your total to 342!
You got revenge on Gas Flange the Bloated, who has killed you 5 times before.

Having some kind of stats when your character dies is always nice, but... Does it really matter how fast you reach a certain location or how many times a spell is cast? Suddenly you start to think about improving your final stats rather than focusing on playing the game. And the RPG becomes arcade.

[Darren Grey]

It depends on implementation, but it's good to have a record of "new things you achieved" after character death to take some of the sting away.  ToME has this and it works quite nicely I think.  Death can be a shattering experience when you're invested in a character, but realising that you've done 5 new things helps you accept that a bit better and get back into the game quicker.

[Nymphaea]

When it comes to roguelikes, where you lose your characters frequently, and item reward doesn't quite make sense. For achievements, even if single player, why not make a separate menu that lists "achievements" instead of giving items? (or display the items there )

You could also use this to display people's best characters, their biggest accomplishment, etc. People just like having a record of what they've done.

[wire_hall_medic]

You got 1 level deeper than you previous best!
. . .
You got revenge on Gas Flange the Bloated, who has killed you 5 times before.

These two in particular got an immediate, positive emotional response.

[Holsety]

Achievements don't have to follow the standard model of being online and your friends being able to see them.

For example a roguelike could track your progress and give you some encouragement when you die:

Congratulations You Died! But...

You got 1 level deeper than you previous best!
You beat your average time to the Dungeon of Woe and got there in 1:02.
You killed more than you average amount of Orcs!
You found the Trousers of Virtue for the first time!
You cast fireball 12 times, raising your total to 342!
You got revenge on Gas Flange the Bloated, who has killed you 5 times before.

The first two are more or less present in any roguelike that has a Hall of Fame. (I like Halls of Fame)
The others I really wouldn't care about, sorry.

It depends on implementation, but it's good to have a record of "new things you achieved" after character death to take some of the sting away.  ToME has this and it works quite nicely I think.  Death can be a shattering experience when you're invested in a character, but realising that you've done 5 new things helps you accept that a bit better and get back into the game quicker.

I don't know if it's JUST me that has this, but my ToME keeps telling me I unlocked an achievement.
When I already unlocked that achievement on 20 previous characters. Each time I do it, ding, achievement unlocked.
Yeah thanks, ToME. Thanks for telling me I got the Arena mode achievement even though I unlocked it the first time 30 characters ago.
And then you die because some monster teleported you next to it and put all your skills and charms on cooldown and just oneshots you, and then you get a post-mortem list of achievements that you've all unlocked on so many previous characters.

That doesn't take the sting away. It makes me *super salty*.