Author Topic: Copyright!  (Read 11830 times)

SuperEffective

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Copyright!
« on: July 18, 2012, 05:15:09 AM »
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been working on a roguelike in libtcod, mostly inspired by Brogue and Shiren the Wanderer. It's coming along nicely, and I'm currently in the process of implementing tiles.

The hitch: it's Pokemon-themed, and I'm considering using (modified) sprites from some of the older gameboy games for said tiles. I'm mostly making the game for myself, my significant other, friends, and family, but it would also be nice to be able to post it for other people to play/critique/etc, so I'm wondering if anyone has advice on the use of this type of content for something posted online.

Is this a good idea? I know TOME4 has a long and storied history with cease & desist letters, but do (much, much, much) smaller and more amateurish projects ever attract that sort of attention?

Regardless of how likely a C&D letter is, is this sort of thing frowned upon?

If this sort of project attracts C&D and/or is frowned upon, would using ASCII help mitigate this?

Skeletor

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 05:19:22 AM »
Welcome to the forum mate.
I would go for it if I were you because it's very, very unlikely that you will get attention from their legal department and even in that case you'll just have to put down the page and that's it. But as I told you, I really doubt there's someone into pokemon-roguelikes among their lawyers! ;-)
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.

Alex E

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 06:12:10 AM »
Many other games use graphics taken from copyrighted sources. For example, a free game named "I Wanna be the Guy" uses graphics taken from multiple nintendo games and has gained much popularity. As long as you don't sell your game commercially or anything then I really don't think you're going to have any problems ;).

Snargleplax

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 08:05:28 AM »
I say only go forward with it if your future happiness does not depend on not getting a cease-and-desist.  Assume you will be noticed, because that's playing it safe, and you're going to invest a lot of time in this thing.  At that point you'll either have to keep it to a very restricted audience, or spend a bunch of time reworking it into some other theme.  You may have a limited audience of close acquaintances in mind now, but once you've built it, wouldn't it be nice to let more people enjoy your work?  Infringing copyright puts that at risk.

Personally, I think you're better off doing a takeoff rather than a direct, branded, copyright-infringing tribute.  Can't copyright a concept.

Darren Grey

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2012, 08:54:36 AM »
The big thing to worry about is Pokemon fans finding out and reporting it, which may then cause a cease and desist.  Since there *are* popular commercial Pokemon roguelikes out there then there is a significant risk of this happening.  Many fans very strongly object to artwork from their favourite games being misused.

I don't think you're in any real legal danger, but it's an extra stress/worry you may not want.

SuperEffective

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 02:49:54 PM »
Thank you all for the advice!  :)

I think I'll go ahead with releasing the project itself once I get a playable version complete, since I'd probably complete it anyway for self + close acquaintances and it sounds like worst-case scenario is that I have to replace it with a verison that doesn't infringe on copyright. But, I'll also try and stay prepared for quickly switching to a takeoff version (as opposed to a direct tribute) in that scenario. And thank you for the heads-up on the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games - I'll specifically avoid using any kind of assets that are similar to the ones used in those.

flowerthief

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 05:57:30 AM »
Imo use of copyrighted materials limits how big of a "splash" a game can make, as it won't be respected in professional circles. I'd avoid it.

I Wanna Be the Guy is an exception. It's kind of a joke game that wouldn't have been the same had it been made any other way.


yam655

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 02:53:12 AM »
You're infringing copyright just by using the same characters/names. An ASCII-based game with the same characters/names would also draw the attention of a cease-and-desist.

The more money behind a brand the more likely a cease-and-desist is.

I operate on the expectation that a big branded property has interns which do nothing but look for copyright infringement. So it's not "lawyers" I would worry about avoiding but unpaid student interns with too much time on their hand who want to look good to their bosses so that they might have a chance at working for one of these companies some day.

If you're going to go to the effort of being able to quickly rebrand the game to something safe, personally, I suggest the public version you release -- along with assorted promotional material/websites -- focus on the safe version.

That is, you have a legal game that has an option -- ideally handled by a separate download which can be yanked without disrupting your main site -- which turns it in to a copyright violator. That would allow you to hang your hat on a legal product, but still share the copyright-violating add-on with direct friends/family.

Copyright violation is serious business in the US. It is such a serious business in the US, when big media feels someone overseas violates US copyright, they work to get the person extradited to the US and charged in a US court even though the "crime" never happened in the US.

All you need is for Nintendo to claim they "lost sales" because of your copyright infringement for the cease-and-desist to very quickly include polite requests for money and lawyer fees as well.

As my instructor at school regularly reminded us: C.Y.A. (Cover Your Ass/Arse).

Also note: If you're putting up something which violates copyright you will probably be violating your agreement with your ISP and whatever host you're using to store the thing. Unless you're hosting it on your own hardware expect all access to your service provider to be shut down and never brought back up. If you're hosting it on your own hardware you may still be violating your ISP's usage policy and could be blacklisted from ever using that ISP ever again.

For instance, http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/terms/ lists "We respond to notices of alleged copyright infringement and terminate accounts of repeat infringers according to the process set out in the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act." I would expect the lawyers involved on the opposition side to be very punctual with regards to timing and to actively hope they'll be able to get you terminated.

So... this means you're potentially looking forward to getting a cease-and-desist while you're on a vacation somewhere without Internet access, then have your services all terminated because you didn't respond fast enough. -- This is what could happen to you if you accept the risk of a cease-and-desist.

Cheers,
Steven Black

Krice

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 06:29:13 AM »
Yeah, all that bullshit is coming from US. It's not bad if it stays in US and applies only for people living there, in the land of fucking freedom.

SuperEffective

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 08:03:24 PM »
Yeah, on further consideration I decided why not be safe instead of sorry. Game is now about a mushroom fighting Dracula. Same mechanics that were initially in the Pokemon version (switching between multiple ability-sets, abilities that interact with terrain,  etc.) but a theme that lets me actually distribute it. Particularly because I live in, as Krice put it, the land of fucking freedom :)

Plus, it's nice not to have to worry about giving monsters abilities that would be imbalanced in the hands of the player.

guest509

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 10:26:58 AM »
Yeah, all that bullshit is coming from US. It's not bad if it stays in US and applies only for people living there, in the land of fucking freedom.

  Only tools in the US say that shit Krice. Like people running for office.

  As for getting a cease and desist letter, so what? That's just a scare tactic. Doesn't mean shit. I've gotten a ton of them, or rather my clients have. It doesn't mean they have a case. Even if they do it doesn't mean they'll pursue it.
 
  Hell they put those letters through the mail half the time. There's not even a guarantee that you received the letter. If they have a process server do it then you still don't have to worry. Hell I'll send you a cease and desist letter right now if you want. It'll look all official and scary.

  If you are small time there is very little chance anyone will even notice. Or care. Very few businesses are as aggressive as Games Workshop.

  Then you'd have to have enough assets that suing you would be worth it. Even then you'll get PLENTY of notice that you are going to get sued. Starting with a letter of injunction from a real judge.

  Cease and desist letters are a form letter some legal assistant fills out and mails off. They have no legal weight. They scare the bejesus out of the uninitiated. That's why we use them. It's a dirty lawyer trick.

  If you want to make a little Pokemon fan game, do it. It's probably best not to title it "POKEMON" all obvious like. Other than that just go for it.

  If you end up with a player base of a couple hundred you'll be super glad, and that still isn't enough to really make a big enough splash.

  Ignore all the crap about I Wanna Be The Guy. Nintendo lets that sort of thing go on, as well as letting emulation go on without much trouble. It keeps those properties alive. There may be people that say different, and the reasons might be in dispute, but Nintendo generally allows it. There are a thousand fan-made Mario games using SNES and NES graphics out there. No one bats an eye.

  The fear of getting a cease and desist letter is overblown because of the one or two instances in which it has actually happened, and a over estimation of how serious such a letter is.

  TLDR? Don't worry about it.

yam655

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 11:30:03 PM »
All I know the Tetris people went after the Curses-based Tetris clone now known as TINT (TINT is not Tetris).

I also know the DMCA is scary, and the copyright holders want new laws that are even worse. They're now trying to work things in to trade agreements so they can be invisible to the public until they're enforceable. I do not want to be involved in the first case brought about because of secret trade agreement or slipped in as a last minute amendment or some such crap... and that only seems absurd to the public because I'm such a small fry.

Add to that the proliferation of software patents and it's pretty easy for a game using artwork or names to find that it's violating a game-play patent on a game that was never released to the market... and that would have gone entirely unnoticed if the game hadn't otherwise been brought to their attention.

It looks like Jo may understand things better than I. My understanding is that if a small independent game gets hit with a patent suit -- a one-man game without a corporation behind it -- the individual developer is the one facing the lawyer bills even before folks know whether or not there are any grounds for it. If there are grounds for it (which you would never know because there are millions of software patents and most software violates dozens of them) then you can be charged per download and since you can't bankrupt a corporation you are left to bankrupt yourself.

Some people are comfortable playing with fire.

I just want to be left alone so I can play/develop roguelike games.

Cheers,
Steven Black

Krice

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Re: Copyright!
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2012, 09:13:12 AM »
Only tools in the US say that shit Krice.

The problem is that those tools make also laws and it matters then. We can all just hope that US idiotism doesn't spread in EU which does look like it will. This big corporation bullshit is getting weird, because there is no one to stop them being greedy bastards they are.