Author Topic: Experience Points  (Read 25414 times)

kraflab

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 08:51:11 PM »
I think the key is to put in a lot of synergistic abilities between skill types.  Make it so finding good 2-3 skill type combos is better than just focusing on one and I think the game gets a lot more interesting.  This is what kept me playing guild wars for so long.  Random example: the ranger (bow wielder) class had a stat that reduced the cost of using non-magic abilities.  You could couple this with a multiclass into another weapon-based class and create a powerful melee warrior, even though your main is supposed to wield a bow :P So even though I got tired of the bow abilities after a while, I kept playing on with a hammer and then a scythe :)

requerent

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 04:13:12 AM »
 Finally something I know a bit about.

I'm going to call you out on this- misinformation is not cool. I know that you're trying to talk about sensible mechanics, but your suggestions do NOT remotely reflect reality. The goal, ofc, is not to reflect reality but make a fun game. However, if we use reality as inspiration, the information you've provided is very misleading and wrong.


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BOWS

NOTE: All bows are rendered nearly useless if the enemy has a shield and they see the user drawing to fire.
    
Crossbows: Useless unless you know how to load, which takes 10 minutes to learn (nearly useless at level 0 skill, big jump by level 1). After that further training doesn't help too much (minor increase per level). Also long range shots are difficult because of the crossbow body getting in the way (huge drop off in hit% at range). Slow to load. Very slow (say 2-3 turns to reload). Also the crossbow tends to slow a man down more than other weapons.

Bows: Intuitive, start off with a pretty good effectiveness (okay at level 0). Practice helps a TON (good increase in effectiveness per level). Maybe a bit shorter ranged than crossbow, but at the same range they are easier to hit something with (greater hit% at range). Quick and easy to load.

Long Bow: Intuitive but takes a lot of strength to use correctly. Otherwise see 'bow'. Historically it was hard to field these units as the weapon is hard to draw and actually hit something with. This was not a skill issue so much as a strength issue (this is controversial, do not take my word for it. Try one...)

I'm assuming the following definitions- A Long Bow is essentially anything greater than 100 lbf, where as a Bow offers around 50 lbf (normal for hunting).

On Reloading-
A bow can be fired non-randomly (I will not use the word 'accurately') at about twice the rate of a crossbow. A crossbow can notch 2-3 bolts in a minute, whereas bows typically run 3-6. At those speeds, the archer will suffer exhaustion during aiming and greatly reduce his/her accuracy. Note also that a crossbow can be reloaded while in cover and fires first. An archer has to draw and fire from a standing position. It's generally a 1:2 ROF rule though.

On Range-
A simple crossbow exceeds a hunting bow significantly. Longbows were historically classified as artillery. A yeoman that can land an arrow in a 1.5 radius circle from 150 yards away was considered masterfully accurate. On the other hand, a simple crossbow can easily hit a range of 300 yards at a similar degree of accuracy. An Italian Cranequin was restrung and found to have a range of 500 yards (cranequins are, however, slower to fire).

On Accuracy-
Archers have to consider wind, the archer's paradox, firing angle, gravity, and pulling force to hit anything beyond 30 yards. A crossbowman doesn't even need to know what those things are to accurately hit something beyond 30 yards. At short range, the crossbow is more stable and strikes with significantly greater force. Crossbows don't suffer from elastic hysteresis, which pretty much definitively makes them more accurate.

On Experience-
The Italian Peninsula housed what was probably the most renowned crossbow culture in history. Due to the geography and preferred tactics, crossbow handling was a status symbol- whereas other places in Europe considered it a weapon of peasants. Italian Crossbow mercenaries, however, dominated nearly every battle they were involved with. They used more complicated crossbows, but were also just more knowledgeable about striking objects. Comparing the crossbow to the bow is some what ridiculous in terms of training. Archery used in combat was reserved for a caste or class of individual that could afford a lifetime of devotion to the weapon. Crossbows require no such dedication.

On Handling-
The crossbow is definitely a heavier and clumsier weapon.

On Damage-
The Bow or Longbow doesn't remotely compare. Arced shots rely on terminal velocity for their damaging force. An arrow cannot penetrate metal armor with terminal velocity. The flex and force of arrows is also insufficient to reliably penetrate a breastplate a mid-range. A crossbow, on the other hand, has much less of a problem. The closer the enemy, the easier it is to kill. A reinforced poplar shield will probably stop a mid-range bolt, but at closer range it's going to cut through.

Final Thoughts-
Crossbows vary greatly in utility. From a poisoned dart gun to a gastraphetes, crossbows are designed for particular purposes, ranges, and field conditions. Above, I talk mainly about the common crossbow you'd expect in the medieval period. However, a crossbow can be designed to fit any purpose. Bows have a lot of variety as well, but that variety plays little role in damage output and ROF. Lastly, a Crossbow is useful to everybody.

Unless you come from an Archer class, it isn't a weapon that you would pick up for anything other than hunting game.

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Hand Weapons

Mace/Club: Very easy to use (good ability at level 0). Skill doesn't help that much, more of a strength and footwork weapon (little effectiveness increase per level). Largely ineffective against armor, but also does not get stuck in armor which is cool. Very easy to make and pick up off the ground.

The formal Mace was used to knock-out nobility so that they could be ransomed. It was considered a weapon of respect and fairness because you didn't kill your opponent with it. That does not mean, however, that it wasn't effective vs armor-- it is designed to fight against armor! The mace became the ceremonial weapon of the Vatican and Royalty for the reasons above.

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Sword: As effective as an axe at level 0, but less effective against armor at low levels. Slashing is NOT effective against armor. Not at all. At higher levels thrusting is perfected and then you can take on armor very well. Most swords are also good at parrying melee attacks, especially Japanese swords. Axes are useless in that role. Historically swords were very expensive, but so superior that everyone coveted them.

Slashing is not effective? The reason why European swords are straight-edged is specifically for HACKING through armor! Curved-swords, like those used in the Middle East, were for fighting unarmored opponents-- because the blade stays connected with the target for the duration of the stroke- dealing significantly more damage (Arabs didn't wear heavy armor because it was impractical in the environment). Arabs did have superior metallurgical practices though, and could make a scimitar that could flex at nearly a 90-degree angle on a downward strike-- which basically means h4xing through shields. Point is, the "broad" edge of the sword was designed to give you a wide edge to hack through armor.

Two armored opponents may resort to pugilism or stilettos to fight one another, but they wouldn't toss their swords away before doing so.

After metallurgical practices improved in europe, they were able to produce heavy armors with hardness comparable to a sword, causing bladed weapons to occasionally ricochet. This resulted in the rise of popularity of Maces and Mace-like weapons (particularly the war hammer), as they were more effective against armored opponents. The sword was still effective and the preferred weapon.

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Halberd/Polearm: Massively popular during medieval times for the foot soldier. Almost as easy as a good axe to produce, these death on a stick weapons were also fairly easy to use effectively. Used in 2 hands, with good length, an advanced user could not only slash (level 0), thrust through armor (low level technique) but also snare with the hook and pull knights off horses or trip up armored men (higher level move). The issue is that shields were not often used with this weapon, so bow fire could really do a lot of damage.

Massively popular, but not typically used- they are NOT as easy to produce and were incredibly expensive* to field properly. I'll have to recheck my sources- but as I recall, You might have halberdiers in the hundreds compared to pikemen in the thousands. Halberdiers (as a formal unit) would be equipped with medium-classed armor-- A plate helm with a wide brow and shoulder armor, and either scale or a breastplate. Long and mid-range archery was useless against them. Arrows at terminal velocity cannot penetrate plate.

*The difference between a shaft and a lance are humongous. A halberd must be set on a reinforced staff of high quality wood as it must be able to withstand the force of a cavalry charge (in contrast with pikes, which don't necessarily need to be reinforced unless you don't have the right type of wood- you also don't care if a pike breaks from receiving a charge). An axe shaft can literally just be a chunk of wood, a bundle of sticks, or a hand-carved branch.

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SOME OTHER WEAPONS

Flails - Have a great range and radius of attack, but require a ton of dexterity to use. Useless at lower levels of skill. Very good against unarmored assailants. Very weak versus armor.

The flail's usefulness extends into cheating shields and disarming opponents on a successful parry. Very weak versus armor? They fulfill a similar role as the Mace, in that they effectively knock an armored opponent out very easily. Jointed weapons acquire a lot of additional power from centrifugal force.

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Short Swords - A surprisingly hard to use weapon. Low level use includes slashing, which is largely ineffective with this weapon, at mid level one starts to learn the thrusting and kill/critical areas on the enemy. The elite level users could use this to parry melee blows, but only the elites. The movie Gladiator is a surprisingly good show of this. Note that this weapon is short and super accurate to wield, so an unsuspecting enemy can very easily get critted just like a dagger.

This is silly. If someone was sent back in time and picked up a short sword, this still probably wouldn't be true. A short sword is easier to understand, easier to handle, and better weighted. Your reference to Gladiator is somewhat true- but a Spatha is far superior to a Gladius for that kind of fighting. Regardless- the main advantage of the Gladius or Short sword is attack speed- you can stab 3 times faster than another weapon can slash. The range makes this less of an obvious advantage in duels.

If found yourself in a duel during the medieval period and you weren't a trained fighter, you'd almost always want to go with a Short Sword and Buckler.

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Great Weapons - Huge clubs, Great Swords, No Dachi and the like. These are low skill weapons. Practice as much as you want and you'll not get better at using them. They are all about strength, not skill. So level gain yields little additional effectiveness. They are of medium effectiveness against armor, but not due to thrusting. These weapons are nearly useless for thrusting. They are just so heavy they can stun an armored enemy, who can then be dispatched in a variety of ways.

No offense, but this was painful to read. The primary role of two-handed greatswords is anti-cavalry via THRUSTING (they would be used IN pike formations!!!). The secondary role is infantry superiority (against other pike formations- similar usage to halberdiers). They were incredibly complicated weapons to use, and provided insane field advantages. Look at the following picture from a manuscript-- Notice how the swords are being used. There is a great deal of complexity and finesse in how these weapons are handled and used on the battlefield. No'Dachi are similarly elegant.


The sword can be held by the blade such that the hilt can be used to disarm and parry- this would be done very quickly, with moves fluidly gliding between a variety of stances.

What you've said only really applies to "Huge Clubs"- whatever those are. And you'd better not be disparaging the grace of a maul.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 05:43:14 AM by requerent »

guest509

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 08:28:33 AM »
  Req' you are way out of your depth, trying hard to be contrary for no real reason. I call you a troll and do not engage in your bullshit.

Quendus

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2012, 08:59:18 PM »
Wonderful. An argument about historical weapon use on a game development forum is much more useful to me than an argument about historical weapon use on a history geek forum. :)

Darren Grey

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2012, 09:05:00 PM »
I think they're just competing to see who has the biggest spear.

guest509

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 09:50:00 PM »
  Thanks Darren. I just inhaled my Mt. Dew  ;)

@Quendus - exactly my feeling.

guest509

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 03:22:34 AM »
  Back on topic, experience points. It looks like you are doing a pretty good job of doling them out. Any system that lets a player keep up with the 'arms race' and keep being competitive against the enemies seems to be doing well.

  The leveling systems I like most are the ones that add abilities or maybe allow the player to up proficiency in certain areas. Maybe the player can pick skills on a tree and keep advancing that tree. So the game is altered by leveling.

  I think a bad way to do it is to make leveling up a requirement to be able to face the next stream of baddies. No new abilities, no real tailoring of the character. You just need to be leveled in order to have enough hit% and HP to take out the next guy. These systems lead to grinding. Players going through the level killing just to kill in order to have a stat/level advantage.

  Playing Diablo I am constantly running back and forth exploring every inch of the game space looking for XP to farm. The baddies are trivial, but the XP keeps me a level or 2 above content and makes it so I can grind XP faster....levels do grant extra skills as well, but man, I think you can think of a better way. Exploration driven by XP farming just seems like bad design.

  But hey, it's tried and true. Many super popular games are nothing but grinders. Hell even Rogue rewards grinding (but also searching for treasure) through the first few levels so you are powered up enough to go stat for stat with baddies later on. Of course, way later you need stats enough to survive long enough to flee in horror from the monsters. :-)

bassamfreiha

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2012, 07:50:30 AM »
If enemies continuously spawned then it may have not been a problem because then the player could grind their skills up. But mine didn't response .This time is experience eminently needed .So experience points so much great and nice.

st33d

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 06:41:33 PM »
xp farming in my game is completely illusory.

You can farm for xp, but you can't get ahead because of the requirement. Similarly, when I used the debug menu to give myself strong armour and went in search of a bug at lower levels I would rocket up in levels fighting stuff -

then stop at the required level for that dungeon.

That is the magic of the doubling curve. It really is quite weird that by racing ahead I get bigger yield kills, but I'm not in that comfort zone above the curve where the going is a bit easier. But I do catch up with the curve - and very quickly as well. So much so that it makes the earlier levels seem meaningless in their reward.

It's not something I planned for - it just seems to be a side effect of the doubling requirement table and doling out enough at each milestone to get to the next level.

guest509

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2012, 03:50:08 AM »
  I think Brogue does something like that doesn't it? Like grinding for XP at one level is not useful because of the huge ramp up in reward/requirement?

Krice

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2012, 12:00:28 PM »
Slashing is not effective? The reason why European swords are straight-edged is specifically for HACKING through armor! Curved-swords, like those used in the Middle East, were for fighting unarmored opponents-- because the blade stays connected with the target for the duration of the stroke- dealing significantly more damage

I think european swords were straight because it was also used to thrust while curved swords were for slashing mainly. I think the difference was in the style of armour and protection in general that made thrusting a good option to quickly hit those areas that were not protected by armour. Curved swords were usually shorter which means they were used more in close combat while straight swords became longer during the history, almost spear-like. Still I guess with all swords slashing was the main attack style, because it's a lot more difficult to parry and also has greater damage than thrust.

requerent

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2012, 08:15:48 PM »
Slashing is not effective? The reason why European swords are straight-edged is specifically for HACKING through armor! Curved-swords, like those used in the Middle East, were for fighting unarmored opponents-- because the blade stays connected with the target for the duration of the stroke- dealing significantly more damage

I think european swords were straight because it was also used to thrust while curved swords were for slashing mainly. I think the difference was in the style of armour and protection in general that made thrusting a good option to quickly hit those areas that were not protected by armour. Curved swords were usually shorter which means they were used more in close combat while straight swords became longer during the history, almost spear-like. Still I guess with all swords slashing was the main attack style, because it's a lot more difficult to parry and also has greater damage than thrust.

Also true.

Jo made a distinction between 'Sword' and 'Great Sword.' These designations are typically used to make a distinction between true two-handers and one-handers or one and a half hand swords (which means we're talking about early renaissance and late medieval). Through the Dark Ages, Spathas were the preferred type of sword (a thrusting weapon). As armors began to match the quality of metal used in weapons, spatha-style swords gave way to medieval bastard-style swords, which were primarily hacking weapons. After armors begin to surpass swords, maces and axes become much more common. We don't see swords excel at thrusting until two-handers become more predominant in late medieval/early renaissance, with swords such as the estoc and zweihander. Around this time the espada makes its debut, the precursor to the spanish rapier, which more or less marks the beginning of the end of slashing weapons.


This is an unnecessary tangent but something I personally find interesting--
After the arquebus becomes more common, we see a sharp decline in this use of armors. Although early firearms fired at lower velocities, the size of the munitions would penetrate heavy armors fairly consistently- (well-made breastplates would be tested against an arque, the resulting dent would typically be encircled with a mark to show its quality). By the time the Brown Bess (standardized musket) comes around, heavy armors are almost completely out of use-- the interesting part about this is that the caliber, velocity and joules of the Brown Bess isn't substantial enough to reliably penetrate the heavy armor used prior to the arquebus.

guest509

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2012, 12:20:41 PM »
  I was not going to reply on this topic but I can't stop myself. God I hate that I can't stop myself. Everyone feel free to tell me I'm taking this shit too personally. I have a fucking advanced degree in history focusing on military history and have been reenacting historical battles for decades. So when I get little ignorant bitches like this calling me out I tend to freak a bit.

  Plus, none of this is in anyway helpful when making a game. None of it. If you want to game this shit check out some table top wargames. There are tons and tons of them. I've played with at least 50 different' rulesets and have written at least 20 others. None of the one's I've written are worth 2 shits or a fuck, except for the one my niece and I play with that lets her stuffed giraffe move 3 wing spans and put any creature she confronts into TIME OUT...

  With apology. I respond. By the numbers.

1. Req' you are a rude ignorant fuck. Next time call out my ignorance in a more polite manner. Then I will respond in a more polite manner. Acting like I'm doing this community a disservice by dissemination misinformation is wrong. It's a bitch move. And fuck you.

2. You act like I'm trying to make historically correct statements when I'm obviously generalizing several thousand years of weapon use. THOUSANDS OF YEARS YOU DUMB CUNT. Sometimes I'm talking about the late medieval period, which is the one used in typical fantasy gaming. Plus I'm talking about wargaming and gaming in general. You are talking about pull weights on bows and all kinds of other shit...Oh jesus, kill yourself. Please. No one will care.

3. Specifically, regarding maces, you are talking about spiked or flanged maces when I specifically mention blunt weapons. But then you seem to be talking about blunts again when you talk about non lethal maces. So which is it? You're an idiot. Blunt weapons were shit v. plate armor, I'm talking about late medieval here. Every fucking fantasy game, every goddamn game in the roguelike genre is about late medieval fucking plate combat (unless it's scifi). Dungeons and Dragons is about the same period minus gun powder. No one is talking about bullshit maces some idiot prince was using in a duel to capture some other fucking idiot. Fuck! Let's be clear. Blunt = Shit v. Plate. Flanged = Good v. Plate. But who gives a shit? Neither were common. If you make a game you can delineate spikes/flanged and blunt, one defeats armor, the other stuns. This is not a 'calling out' topic.

4. You link a longsword picture addressing my great sword/no dachi statement which is clearly an image of longsword battle. There's a huge fucking difference between long swords and great swords, no dachi and massive 2 handed clubs. You link specifically to a picture of a battle using the half sword technique using the pommel of the sword to stun the enemy. Great. That technique was good in duels for about 25 seconds over several thousand years.
  Read about the No Dachi, so you don't sound dumb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodachi

  Here is the wiki page, from which you derived your image, the text that goes with the image completely refutes what you say. This is because you're a moron trying to start shit with someone you shouldn't have fucked with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword#Harnischfechten

  Here is the text.

"cutting and slicing attacks against an opponent wearing plate armour were almost entirely ineffective in providing any sort of slashing wound as the sword simply could not cut through the steel..."

  If you are having trouble with that text, just lemme translate. It says "Yer dumb."

5. Did I mention you're a bloated idiot?

6. You talk for over 30 lines about archery, after 'calling me out', but do not refute jack shit about what I said. This makes you a dripping cunt.

6.5.  Oh look. Here's a German greatsword you might have been talking about. But you didn't link to it. And it doesn't support your dumb as fuck claims. Historians are only as good as their sources. Here I am using wikipedia. A shit source, but still better than yours, which was nonexistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder

7. I'm still trying to figure out what game you've written or contributed to. I've written a couple of very very bad games. I've contributed to some super awesome ones. I'm not that great of a contributor to the genre really, but I'm better than you. I can't find where you've contributed anything. At all. I could be wrong, but still you can go fuck yourself.

8. The medieval long sword was made to thrust through armor. It is fine for slashing through shit armor or unarmored people. But not plate armor. This is well established. You are dumb fuck for saying otherwise. Curved swords were common throughout the thousands or so years that swords were common because good armor was rarely common. Even late, say in WWI, sabers were used because guns made armor obsolete, so slashing was working again. Same throughout the entire gunpowder period, but find me one fucking knight in the late medieval period, the only period relevant here. One knight. Just one. None of those fuckers use curved swords you fucking yutz. The thing is you actually know this, but still felt the need to be a cunt. Western culture was almost always ahead in armor so straight swords became the norm throughout history.

9. The period of 'fantasy' is not even historical. So really this all fucking bullshit. Fantasy is really based on early renaissance with medieval technology. Plus fucking magic and elves you dumb mother fucker. Jesus fuck none of us are 'right'. Why are you trying to be right? Why am I? I'll tell you. Because you called me out in the dumbest way I've ever been called out. Have I mentioned you're a cunt?

10. About short swords? You felt to need to correct me about spatha v. gladius? Which I never even mentioned. Oh fuck then you go on to talk about what would I do if I went back in time to use one? I've beaten men bloody with this sword, though blunted. Then you go on to agree with me about how it's a stabbing weapon? Have I mentioned your a cunt? I demand better.

11. Regarding the Halberd/Polemarm - Historians mistake Pikes and Polearms. It's hard to know which was which in various battles. This is of no consequence for roguelike combat. Neither were that useful in close duels. Game wise they can be fun, as you can add lengths to weapons, or even sweep radius. Brogue does this. Correcting me if this is a bitch move. Note I did not say 'cunt' in this paragraph.

12. Have I mentioned flails? FLAILS? Who the fuck cares you dumb bitch?


  Go ahead and ban me if you want Getter. It's cool. I've been fuming for days and the catharsis of writing this response has been worth any negative outcome.


Krice

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2012, 03:12:18 PM »
Jesus fuck none of us are 'right'.

You are right. It's funny how little we (at least me) know about weapons of age before guns, and how they were used in the battle.

This is a cool thread, because I'm already getting ideas for Kaduria which is going to be more realistic than typical D&D roguelike.

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Go ahead and ban me if you want Getter.

Don't ban him getter. Jo is our weapons expert!

Omnomnom

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Re: Experience Points
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2012, 04:41:23 PM »
I didn't read this thread there were too many words on it but I did look at the pictures. This one caught my eye:


What on earth is going on there? The guy on the right is holding the sword the wrong way round lol.

I bet the one on the left is saying "you fool Thomas, you are holding your sword the wrong way round! And to think when you came out in all that gear I thought you knew what you were doing! Look how easy it is for me to stab you Thomas and I am not even really trying"
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 04:50:26 PM by Omnomnom »