No HP, minimal healing

[Snargleplax]

Some great points have been made, more than I can do justice to individually.  I think the criticisms of the system I described are fair, and I'm thinking about what to do instead to achieve at least some of what I want.  I like the idea of having a secondary pool that you dip into when seriously injured, and also using this pool to limit max HP.  So if you run out of "primary" HP and then take another 30% of your bar in damage, your HP will only heal up to 70% until your secondary pool refills.

Seems like this approach gives a good balance of short-term and long-term considerations in managing character health.  The speed of the fast pool should make healing potions unnecessary in routine situations, so healing magic that fills the slow pool could be more of a rare and special thing.

I'd also like to use this system for fatigue, which will determine spellcasting capacity.  A fast and a slow pool would mean you could crank out minor spells without worry, but call on your deepest reserves when faced with a critical moment.  To me this feels like a better model of how exhaustion works than a simple linear scale.

[kraflab]

I'd also like to use this system for fatigue, which will determine spellcasting capacity.  A fast and a slow pool would mean you could crank out minor spells without worry, but call on your deepest reserves when faced with a critical moment.  To me this feels like a better model of how exhaustion works than a simple linear scale.

Again, to me you are just using a linear scale and obscuring it for no purpose other than added complexity.  It still seems to me like minor spells cost less mp (or whatever) in comparison to major spells.  Calling out your reserves at a critical moment is something that people already do with a linear scale.  I just don't see any difference in what you're describing, other than possible annoying constraints.

[Snargleplax]

Again, to me you are just using a linear scale and obscuring it for no purpose other than added complexity.  It still seems to me like minor spells cost less mp (or whatever) in comparison to major spells.  Calling out your reserves at a critical moment is something that people already do with a linear scale.  I just don't see any difference in what you're describing, other than possible annoying constraints.

I really do think it adds a dynamic that's not present with a linear scale.  The problem I see with a single scale is that any recovery mechanism will apply uniformly across that scale, so you can't differentiate levels of injury qualitatively.  I'd like to let players recover quickly from minor injuries once they have a chance to catch their breath between fights, to keep the action brisk.  However, it's unrealistic to be injured near death over and over and just bounce back to 100% like that.

Think about what this does for the feeling of risk as you're adventuring.  When you can heal from anything quickly, all risk is binary -- either it kills you and the game is over, or you move on unscathed.  Games rarely present truly deadly threats around every corner; that would make them too difficult, so there are many boring enemies as filler.  Like poker, roguelike play can consist of "hours of boredom punctuated by brief moments of extreme terror."  Isn't it a problem that it's boring so much of the time?  How many stupid deaths are due to the boredom of everyday enemies that present no mortal threat?  Wouldn't a game that keeps you on your toes more, be more exciting?

When I fight an acid mound in Brogue,  I often have to fight it barehanded and naked to spare my unprotected weapon and armor.  Thus weakened and made vulnerable, I often find that the though fight is still basically easy (I'm in little danger of dying), my health gets pretty low by the time I've finished it off.  It's a pretty formulaic situation, the results are pretty consistent, and I do it all the time.  To me this feels very gamey and artificial, not to mention uninteresting.  If those fights carried with them the possibility of lingering injury, I'd have to pay closer attention and work harder to avoid serious injury.  An enemy that can't kill you, but can wound you badly, can mean something besides more nutrition lost due to resting up after the fight.

I believe giving the player that longer-term level of risk to manage and mitigate will make for interesting gameplay.  I'm feeling interested enough in this to implement it, so I guess it won't have to be an entirely theoretical discussion.  I hope you'll give my game a try when I get a version out for download.

[Holsety]

[...] I like the idea of having a secondary pool that you dip into when seriously injured, and also using this pool to limit max HP.  So if you run out of "primary" HP and then take another 30% of your bar in damage, your HP will only heal up to 70% until your secondary pool refills.

Seems like this approach gives a good balance of short-term and long-term considerations in managing character health.  The speed of the fast pool should make healing potions unnecessary in routine situations, so healing magic that fills the slow pool could be more of a rare and special thing.

I'd also like to use this system for fatigue, which will determine spellcasting capacity.  A fast and a slow pool would mean you could crank out minor spells without worry, but call on your deepest reserves when faced with a critical moment.  To me this feels like a better model of how exhaustion works than a simple linear scale.

That actually sounds really good. A system where hitting/going below 0 doesn't end the game, but lowers your maximum for the rest of the run, is it? Sounds like it'd allow plenty of room for new players to make mistakes while at the same time being punishing for those trying to ascend.

I like it for mana too, rather than the ADOMesque system of calling on HP once your mana reserves are drained.

I really do think it adds a dynamic that's not present with a linear scale.  [...]  I'd like to let players recover quickly from minor injuries once they have a chance to catch their breath between fights, to keep the action brisk.  However, it's unrealistic to be injured near death over and over and just bounce back to 100% like that.

I agree with the sentiment, though you might want to consider having healing potions heal OVER max HP (but not restore max HP) so the player doesn't just stop playing once his max HP hits 3 or something because "it'd be hopeless to win".

Think about what this does for the feeling of risk as you're adventuring.  When you can heal from anything quickly, all risk is binary -- either it kills you and the game is over, or you move on unscathed.  Games rarely present truly deadly threats around every corner; that would make them too difficult, so there are many boring enemies as filler.  Like poker, roguelike play can consist of "hours of boredom punctuated by brief moments of extreme terror."  Isn't it a problem that it's boring so much of the time?  How many stupid deaths are due to the boredom of everyday enemies that present no mortal threat?  Wouldn't a game that keeps you on your toes more, be more exciting?

Reminded me of Andrew Doull's article "Windshields and warriors".
http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.nl/2012/05/windshields-and-warriors.html
(And some other articles that don't float to the top of my mind as easily  )
Feel there has to be a balance between the sweet boredom of bulldozing and the terror of having to bring out my A-game to survive/thrive.

I'm feeling interested enough in this to implement it, so I guess it won't have to be an entirely theoretical discussion.  I hope you'll give my game a try when I get a version out for download.

Gladly 

[Snargleplax]

I agree with the sentiment, though you might want to consider having healing potions heal OVER max HP (but not restore max HP) so the player doesn't just stop playing once his max HP hits 3 or something because "it'd be hopeless to win".

Yeah, I think occasional healing would be fine, probably a good thing even.  Providing a health fountain right before a boss encounter, for example, would avoid the 3hp problem.  Though perhaps even a health fountain only gets you to, say, 90%, and if you want 100% you've got to keep your hide untarnished the whole way down.

[kraflab]

Again, to me you are just using a linear scale and obscuring it for no purpose other than added complexity.  It still seems to me like minor spells cost less mp (or whatever) in comparison to major spells.  Calling out your reserves at a critical moment is something that people already do with a linear scale.  I just don't see any difference in what you're describing, other than possible annoying constraints.

I really do think it adds a dynamic that's not present with a linear scale.  The problem I see with a single scale is that any recovery mechanism will apply uniformly across that scale, so you can't differentiate levels of injury qualitatively.  I'd like to let players recover quickly from minor injuries once they have a chance to catch their breath between fights, to keep the action brisk.  However, it's unrealistic to be injured near death over and over and just bounce back to 100% like that.

I think maybe your problem is identifying current healing systems with the scale itself.  If, for instance, you made it so healing increases your health by 1/9, you could achieve what I think it is you are looking for without operating on a complex multiscale system.  1 turn of healing at 9% might get you up to 10% while a turn at 90% would fully heal you.  This seems like a more intuitive thing (specifically in that taking 5 damage always means the same thing).  I also think it works better than having multiple pools of mana, etc.

Another option would be to have a waiting period at e.g. 30% before getting to the point where you can continue healing.

[requerent]

The negative feedback loop of permanently reduced HP probably isn't a great idea.