Cardlike - Doing another version for this year's 7DRL

[guest509]

It is a bit odd to make card games for a Roguelike competition. I did one last year for the 7DRL competition. It was very low in production value but had some interesting concepts. The rules were very hard to discern though. I think most people actually played the game incorrectly. I just wrote them too quickly.

This year I plan to make another one. This time I'll be putting the game into a virtual table top so you can play the game on your computer without having to print out and cut out the cards. You can still print and cut if you want. I'll include the files and directions for doing so. But since this is a computer game competition I figure releasing a computer game is probably the most appropriate thing to do. Plus I can include hundreds of cards this way and not worry about the cost of printing and cutting for the end user.

One issue is that there will not be hardly any rules enforced for the game. This is an issue. You'll actually have to read the rules. I'm only giving you the components to drag around the desk top. Maybe some dice rollers (we'll see). The rest is a bit beyond me.

In the past I've put some effort in to making a basic digital RL and also hacking an existing one to add features (like arrow key support in PRIME). I've even toyed with the ToME engine. I'm just not much of a coder anymore. I was in the 1990's, but anymore my coding efforts fizzle. And failure is NOT FUN!

My efforts to build card and board games tend to find much greater success. Many have come to fruition and some are pretty fun. So I'm going to stick to it. Banging my head against a wall trying to make a good traditional RL has just been too frustrating.

So what do you think? Can a roguelike inspired card game with a digital interface be considered an roguelike? It'll have all the elements. Random content, item interactions, etc... And also what do people think about the value of actually succeeding in creating something? At what point do you sort of realize that coding is just not your forte? No matter how much you'd like to write the next big roguelike?

EDIT: Here is last years version. I do not think it's that good. But it was a good start.
http://uploading.com/files/21a12f55/Rogue%2B-%2BThe%2BCardlike.rar/

[Skeletor]

Great!

This sounds very interesting and innovative, and I'm also a big fan of poker and Magic The Gathering.

Do you know Shalandar?
It was an old MTG Microprose videogame where you were a wizard with your deck and wandered fighting other wizards (everyone with a different deck), buying/selling cards, and so on.
It was so awesome many people still play it (in a somewhat improved version.. not much because some restrictions were hard-coded, btw if you're interested check slightlymagic forums).

[guest509]

  Huh. Never heard of it. Maybe I'll check it out.

[Skeletor]

  Huh. Never heard of it. Maybe I'll check it out.

http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Installation_Guide_and_User_Manual
Have fun ;-)

[Darren Grey]

So what do you think? Can a roguelike inspired card game with a digital interface be considered an roguelike? It'll have all the elements. Random content, item interactions, etc... And also what do people think about the value of actually succeeding in creating something? At what point do you sort of realize that coding is just not your forte? No matter how much you'd like to write the next big roguelike?

It's a roguelike-like at least    And something fun and different from the other releases.  Variety is always good.

I've realised I'll never be a good coder myself, which is why I gave up on making from-scratch games in FreePascal and starting playing with the T-Engine.  That way I don't have to bother with the coding for save games, inventories, display, mouse support, etc.  It may be easy for some, but it gets in the way of making a game for me.  Of course it also restricts what I can achieve overall...  But I'm happy making little gimmicky games, so that's all fine.

I would suggest trying to partner with someone to help do the coding side of your card game.  I'm sure someone would be willing to help out.  Post on the T-Engine forums if you're still interested in using it.

[Ancient]

In the past I've put some effort in to making a basic digital RL and also hacking an existing one to add features (like arrow key support in PRIME).

This feature is already in along with configurable keybindings.

So what do you think? Can a roguelike inspired card game with a digital interface be considered an roguelike? It'll have all the elements. Random content, item interactions, etc... And also what do people think about the value of actually succeeding in creating something? At what point do you sort of realize that coding is just not your forte? No matter how much you'd like to write the next big roguelike?

At least partially a roguelike. I think it is fair game to enter 7DRL Challenge with this.

One cannot get everything by definition. It appears you excel at careful game design. You understand implications of rules and their long term consequences. Keep at it.

Do not think non-coding developers are undervalued. David Ploog of Stone Soup team is contributing with similar set of skills you have. Players sometimes do fling mud at him for not doing the programming while still making important design decisions though. I have no idea how Crawl team responds but if someone would accuse Psiweapon of not helping using similar "arguments" that would surely trigger my wrath.

[Z]

So what do you think? Can a roguelike inspired card game with a digital interface be considered an roguelike? It'll have all the elements. Random content, item interactions, etc... And also what do people think about the value of actually succeeding in creating something? At what point do you sort of realize that coding is just not your forte? No matter how much you'd like to write the next big roguelike?

I think Roguelike needs to have a roguelike map divided into squares (or something similar, like hexes or HyperRogue's hyperbolic tesselation) where locations are tactically important (it is hard to exactly define this, but Decker and Desktop Dungeons fail this as tactics are completely different). But I think all good games related to roguelikes are welcome in the 7DRL challenge anyway.

[guest509]

Adding a map grid is one of the major additions to this version of Cardlike. You draw a map tile (square cards) and lay it down next to your Hero. Then you can move there if you want. More advanced rules allow you to peak into the room and see if you want to enter. But that's about the extent that manuever has on combat. Also if playing with a group other Heroes can give you stuff if you are adjacent. I could easily add more depth in a board gamey version. This version is trying for portability. I want everything to work as cards with exception being maybe a pawn (or mini fig if you have one) to show the hero location.

@Ancient - Arrow key support is awesome thanks. It may have been my request that prompted the change. I remember trying to tackle it awhile back and just quitting in frustration. I'll download the most recent version now and get to playing. BTW Prime would make a fantastic card/board game.

[Hamish]

There is an old boardgame I have tried to redesign a few times, its called 'The Sorcerer's Cave'. My redesigns mostly consist of redesigning the illustrations and adding additional cards because the core mechanics are perfect in there simplicity but the game pieces are fairly limited.

Its basically a simple dungeon crawling adventure for any number of players and shares some similarities with Roguelikes:

You uncover a random map segments each turn.
You encounter monsters that are either hostile or can be approached to join your party.
You're characters can carry a limited amount and treasure is weighted
you collect magic artifacts to boost your fighting power.
It is pretty fatalistic and stupid choices lead to death.

You should check it out and buy a copy if you can. I have bought three copies from charity shops over the years.

Heres a link http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1202/the-sorcerers-cave

[guest509]

@Darren - I just spent the last couple of hours fiddling with my own module in T-Engine. It reminds me why I switched from Computer Engineering to History and Law so long ago. It's not that the concepts are too complex or that I cannot fathom the code. I just don't enjoy it. At all. And I think hobby game creation should be about pleasure. The real rub here is that I do not enjoy the actual playing of board/card games as much as I enjoy video games. It's just the creation of board/card games I enjoy so much. Go figure. :-)

Edit: You know I hear that many developers do not actually play their own games much...Does that seem odd to anyone? I guess the act of creation and the enjoyment of the end product are totally different experiences.

[guest509]

@Hamish - The influence of Sorcerer's Cave and the other Dungeon! style boardgames can clearly be seen in my design. Yet I've never actually owned a copy of them.

[guest509]

@Hamish - Hey man you can download a video game version of that game. It's a bit rough to play but hey it's there.

http://skookumpete.com/

About 2/3 the way down the page. Runs under windows (but not 64 bit).

[Psiweapon]

@Jo

Making card / tabletop games is EXTREMELY FUN. Rewarding. Sometimes playing them is more fun, sometimes it's less. Sometimes your friends get all hooked and you spend a whole schoolyear playing it, sometimes it fares okay, then you make a second version and nobody is interested.

Keep at it. In my eyes, your cardlike was the most formally clever idea presented at the ARRP. Making games rocks. Whatever kind.

@Ancient

Thanks. So. Fucking. Much.  I'll write many, many, many text chunks. And do the research. I promise.

[Skeletor]

@Jo
Making card / tabletop games is EXTREMELY FUN. Rewarding. Sometimes playing them is more fun, sometimes it's less. Sometimes your friends get all hooked and you spend a whole schoolyear playing it, sometimes it fares okay, then you make a second version and nobody is interested.

Same here, I remeber since primary school (until the high school) all my mates have been playing the games I created. Many rpgs and also one tabletop tactics (+cards) game. We played them also during lessons, I remember there was a dumb professor who always got angry because she thinked we were playing for money (dices = money) hahaha.

Men are born for games. Nothing else. Every child knows  that play is nobler than work. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood  Meridian

[Ancient]

Jo, the version with new UI stuff is not out yet! I apologize for misleading. Current changes are nice but gameplay is barely touched. Target release date is late February or early March. Yes, it was you who brought the issue up at the announcement thread.