Can a Roguelike with only monsters be fun?

[Pueo]

well here is what I had so far.

Test

This is great!  It sucked me in for at least half an hour, which isn't to bad considering there's only ~5 levels and no story.
Some things that would make it better:

It seems a little frustrating that sometimes the only thing you can do is walk into the path of a monster. And then you get hit. Maybe add a wait system, but only usable a certain amount of times?

A secondary ranged attack, but only usable once or twice.

Larger islands. It will add more depth and puzzle-ing. Maybe make a fun little pre-made that has a chessboard layout Mice in the front, yetis for Rooks, etc. That would be pretty cool, but very hard.

[jasonpickering]

Glad you liked it. I almost think back to Desktop Dungeons where there are levels you cant beat, but you dont mind because you can jump right back in.

I do agree that some extra stuff needs to be added to help with player movement, which seems to be the main problem now. the player gets stuck in positions with no way out. I think by adding skills it would really help that, but I guess the main thing would be adding skills to make the game easier, but not to easy.

Also I cant make the islands any larger. My original goal was to keep the entire island on screen all the time, so that limited the island size.

[lulero]

For the level generation algorithm, you could probably still generate them randomly but then have a method to tell how good the generated levels are.

A way to do it:

Have a graph of game positions, the starting one as a root node. A move means an edge leading to a new position/node. Note that you can have cycles so check before adding a new position. It's easier to do if deterministic but not impossible if not, way more complex though.

Winning node: position where the player escaped
Losing node: position where the player died
Winnable node: position from which there is at least a path leading to a winning node
"Choice matter" node: Winnable position from which there is at least a path leading to a losing node

Once you have the complete graph you can easily extract a few interesting figures, probably something like that:
- Beatable, have at least one winning node
- Difficulty, ratio of winning paths versus losing ones (cycle don't count)
- Interesting, number of "choice-matter" nodes

EDIT: Some fixes.

[jasonpickering]

okay so I would basically solve a puzzle as soon as it was generated, then give it to the player? of course the problem being that any movement of the monsters would throw the whole thing off. Hence your deterministic AI. I completely Understand why the guys at Desktop Dungeons chose stationary monsters. which to be honest I actually thought about before. Giving the player stationary monsters and forcing them to clear the island or kill a certain percentage before being allowed to move on.

[Pueo]

Ok, I think I found a bug: (or it may be intentional)
The second I touch the pedestal/book/amulet thing, I move to a new level, with a new pedestal/book/amulet where the bridge should be.  Then I just keep going through levels, reaching the pedestal over and over again.

[lulero]

Current enemies are the Mouse, Skeleton, Goblin, Yeti, and Fairy. there is no ending yet, in the full game you win when you reach the Alter on the 5th island.

There's a bug with the level generation tho, as the altar can be "reached" by the ground but have nothing under it. Then looks like a boat pretty much heh. Also not sure how the freeze from the yeti works if monsters are already frozen, couldn't make sure but felt like it sometimes refresh, sometimes not (when the effect already about to wear off).

If you don't want to have premade levels nor an oracle, you still can find some heuristics. Like, monsters shouldn't spawn too close from the player to allow him to position himself.

[jasonpickering]

Yeah The game should end after the 5th island and the 6th island will always have the alter floating, Which the player will never see once the code is changed to redirect to the you win screen.

so I put more thought into the Random Generation or Pre-made puzzles. still on the fence though. I come up with a lot of neat situations in my head, but the fact is that I cant really make sure they happen, because the enemies move and if a player takes a step in a way i didn't suspect the entire level would break. I think if I was doing stationary monsters then I would go with the premade levels. but for now I think tweaking the generation algorithm, adding enemy rarity, and working out a better system of how many guys should be on an island would help out greatly.

[Pueo]

Yeah The game should end after the 5th island and the 6th island will always have the alter floating, Which the player will never see once the code is changed to redirect to the you win screen.

Okay, so it's just because it's not fully finished yet. Thanks

[Hamish]

yeah, its neat and pretty, I'd waste time on my phone with this as it is.

Having played it, I think my initial idea might possibly work. What I meant by shunt was pushing enemies as a way of positioning them and maximising their effects.

Single clicking could attack, double clicking could push an enemy backwards. If they are not directly by the water they would go back two spaces(So as to give them the initiative if they come back at you) or one if that brings them to the edge. If they are directly by the water then pushing would send them over the edge, killing them without getting their death effect. This might give the player more choice regarding the order they engage enemies.

You could also vary the way enemies react to pushing. flying creatures could hover over the water and return to the island on their next move - heavier enemies could resist pushing all together and some enemies would be able to push you, giving you reason to stay away from edges.

Additional enemies you could add:

Mario style turtles, that leave a kickable bullet behind
Spider - leaves a sticky spot that traps an enemy for 3 turns
Bats - can fly over water
porcupines - do not attack you, but cause you damage if attacked directly - they would move at random and block your movements - could be destroyed when frozen or with an indirect attack (turtle shell)
frost gnome {okay the monsters suck but their effect are ok :¬) } would leave behind an ice patch. any creature who walks onto an ice patch immediately slides on to the far square, this would provide a means of speeding movement or extending the effects of pushing.
Lug - 3 hearts but moves every other turn (can still attack every turn of you are in range)

Also, if you wanted a mechanic to stop players from skirting around all the monsters and moving onto the next island you could introduce a boss character. They would occupy the far bridge and only retreat if you kill enough monsters. While they sit there they could lob obstacles like fire and ice, stickystuff etc.

[Hamish]

I just thought that an octopus that leaves slippery ink would make more sense than an ice gnome.

[jasonpickering]

thanks hamish i think i might actually do that push idea. I don't think double clicking will work, but I am sure I can think of a control scheme for it. I also like the enemy types idea like flying and heavy. I think I might need to create a almanac for the player to look at that has all the enemies in it so they can keep them all straight.

[jasonpickering]

So throwing in some code for the push I tried something out. basically the player has two attacks now. 1 the normal attack and 2 an attack where you step forward (if the place is empty). using just this and fighting only mice I was able to get to the 5th island only being hit once. I then tried it again with all the enemies and it was still pretty good. I almost died from a goblin, but I was able to get to a yeti and freeze him. I am going to do some quick balancing and give you guys a version with that to see what you think. I think it could be a nice easy fix.

This of course reminds me of a system used in the board games Decent, Doom, and Gears of War. where the player is given two moves per each enemies 1. the moves consist of:

Move Move
Attack Move
Move Attack
Attack Attack

there is also a special move which takes up both turns but gives the player a Special such as health back, or a more powerful attack next time. this could also be another option, but for now I will stick with What I have now.

Edit: Here is a build. Hold shift and click to move and attack.

[Pueo]

Move Move
Attack Move
Move Attack
Attack Attack

So here's what I found. You can either:

Attack Attack - Goblins/Skeletons
Attack Move - Yetis/Mice/Fairies

Attack Attack works as: Shift-Click Shift-Click
You get to attack twice, effectively letting you take out goblins with no damage (if you get the first hit) and taking out a skeleton in one (enemy's) turn.

Attack Move works as: Shift-Click
You get to attack a creature and immediately take its place. I would think of it as a lunge forward.

I don't know how to "Move Attack" or "Move Move"
If I try to "Move Attack", I move, the enemies take a turn, then I attack.
If I try to "Move Move", the same thing happens.

Just my feedback, I'm not sure if it was intentional or not. But either way, great improvement! The game is much more fun now

[lulero]

Nice, doesn't feel as forced now. On the other hand it's a bit confusing at first and too easy. I'd say drop the option to attack+attack, shift lets you move if you kill and that's it.

Managed to get far enough on first try so monsters started spawning on water. At that point you kill monsters facing you till a yeti reaches you and then you kill-move your way (preferably through fairies) to the next yeti.

[jasonpickering]

Sorry I should have explained better. I didn't actually add the 2 choice thing (move move, move attack). I was only saying I could add it. The only options now are Move, Attack, and Attack & Move.

Lulero: I actually found out you could attack goblins twice after I posted. its a glitch caused by some haphazard coding. so I will fix that tonight.

Next I plan on coding in the you win at level 5. so people don't keep going after they get the end.