On the subject of Plot...

[Pueo]

I've been back and forth with myself on this one, but in my in-dev rogue-like, I was planning on a pretty detailed story, with certain in game events being dictated as well. 

I've noticed that many rogue-likes don't have plots, they usually have, "Your god wants you to get the Amulet" stories. At first I didn't understand this, but I think I have it figured out: Once people know the plot, they probably won't want to play it over and over again.  I mean, how many times have you replayed those big shot games, like Call of Duty, or Halo, that have predefined stories and everything?  I don't want my game to become a "one-and-done" type of deal.

Vote, but please add your $.02 below as well.

[Fenrir]

The plot would be an element that could not be played again with much pleasure, but I would not say that it erodes your ability to replay the game. If Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup had a plot, but kept all else the same, would you find yourself unable to play it as much?

[Legend]

Sorry. I haven't actually voted yet since I'm finding it kinda hard to give a simple yes/no answer.

In my opinion, it could be quite possible to have a detailed plot and still retain replayability. I think the main thing that keeps a plot from being replayable is scripted events. If the exact same event occurs at the same time in the same place during each game, then it does retract from replayability a bit. But, if there are possible "plot twists" or branches, then it could be much more replayable. For instance, if instead of the same event occurring each time, there could be a pool of events from which one is randomly chosen each game to occur within a specific window of time or dungeon level. If written well, I think it is fully possible to have a plot and events that change somewhat during each game that can either all lead to the same ending, or even have multiple possible endings. Kinda like the old Fighting Fantasy and Lone Wolf adventure gamebooks.

DoomRL is an instance that I can think of where plot and scripted events do detract from replayability.  Levels 15, 25, and 26 are always the same. Certain specific items can only be found on specific levels which always have the same layout and enemies. These things have brought down a bit of the replayability for me when it comes to DoomRL.

[Pueo]

So would you say that a pool of events, chosen randomly, coupled with an alternate-ending-type-thing, would be best?  

I had also thought of a kind of "Karma" system, somewhat like the Fable series (although not nearly as in-depth), that would contribute to the story somehow. What do you think of that idea?

Legend, I've also added a 50/50 type of vote.

[flags]

So would you say that a pool of events, chosen randomly, coupled with an alternate-ending-type-thing, would be best?

This seems like the best idea. It gives you the best of both worlds: Having a plot while still remaining somewhat unpredictable/random.

Not too sure about the karma system since I've never played Fable.

[Pueo]

Not too sure about the karma system since I've never played Fable.

Fable has a system where if  you do 'evil' actions (stealing from shops, killing civilians, killing peaceful creatures, etc), then the game will follow a slightly different path, generally making the game world a worse place.  However, if you do 'good' actions (being a vegetarian, paying higher prices at shops, killing evil creatures, etc), then the game will follow a 'better' path, and you will end up with a 'good' ending.

[jim]

You can really only randomize plot like they do in games like Red Dead Redemption (which, if you think about it, is just a slightly more complicated version of good/neutral/evil altars in the dungeon.)

[Pueo]

You can really only randomize plot like they do in games like Red Dead Redemption (which, if you think about it, is just a slightly more complicated version of good/neutral/evil altars in the dungeon.)

Can you explain Red Dead Redemption plot randomization? I've never played that game.

[jim]

So you ride around the old American west on your horse and throughout are semi-random events. A woman is in distress. Do you

a) give her a ride back to town
b) leave her to her own fate
c) mug her

Bandits are robbing a stagecoach, a lynch mob is about to hang a man, etc etc. Lots of opportunities to change your alignment - in effect, the same thing that Fable offers or ADOM has with altars. It's no stretch to have the alignment thing go a little metaphysical and affect the surrounding game world. You are the central character, after all.

If you were gonna go that route, though, I'd really like to see something other than good, neutral, and evil. Maybe a Tarot theme.

[Hamish]

I think plot isn't necessarily a bad thing, if done interestingly. I think in roguelikes part of the appeal is that the player is not always the star of the show, he's just some guy who might make it big, or might starve to death in a hole somewhere. So it would be neat to have the player slowly work themselves into the narrative.

Early on in the game you could have low level NPCs chit chat about the lords of the realm, brewing troubles etc. This would add some narrative texture and set up some scenarios for later. As the player progresses they can interact with some of the more epic NPCs and follow plot branches depending on who they work for, kill etc.

With a little work it could all be randomised as well, so it would provide new story arcs to hang quests on for each new game.

I dont know if that counts as plot anymore, but from the development side you get the fun of writing some of your ideas into the game.

[Legend]

Another idea is to create dilemma's. As in the player has the choice between taking two different actions as in saving person A or person B?

[Pueo]

Another idea is to create dilemma's. As in the player has the choice between taking two different actions as in saving person A or person B?

What do you think of not having 'dilemmas,' per se, but you can meet other adventurers on your quest, and depending if you kill them, befriend them, or leave them be, you may or may not meet them again later in the quest, and they may or may not impact the plot somehow?

[Pueo]

I think plot isn't necessarily a bad thing, if done interestingly. I think in roguelikes part of the appeal is that the player is not always the star of the show, he's just some guy who might make it big, or might starve to death in a hole somewhere. So it would be neat to have the player slowly work themselves into the narrative.

What do you think of the character being the main star, but other, different, characters (NPC's) can work themselves into the story? Try reading my post right above this one.  You can still starve to death in a hole somewhere, but there is more of a backstory that makes that starvation that much more embarrassing, because you know you had a mission and failed.