Author Topic: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike  (Read 18464 times)

RaustBD

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Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« on: November 15, 2011, 08:52:02 PM »
Hey, I've been learning java as a hobby for a while, and I'm planning on making a survival horror roguelike.

No, it WILL be ASCII. No advanced graphics, primitive sound effects only; in short, I want to create a scary experience with the bare minimum of audio and visual effects.

As a matter of fact, no plot or backstory will be disclosed at all, so it won't be clear what the ASCII characters on the screen actually represent.

Man can learn to fear things, and I want to see if man can learn to fear a "Q", given the right context and setup.

Does this interest anybody?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 09:42:26 PM by RaustBD »

guest509

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 06:06:38 AM »
  Sound is often used to set a creepy mood. Pacing as well. A slower pacing followed by a frenzy of activity also causes fear/shock/surprise. I have seen this achieved to great effect when you enter a room not knowing what is in there but then BAM there are like 50 bad guys all milling about and the music changes to the "your screwed" track.
  Just my thoughts.

jim

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 10:49:16 PM »
You would have to be an artistic genius to make this work.

Then again, maybe you ARE an artistic genius.

You will need to be a complete master of the minimalist aesthetic in order to make letters on a screen scary. Don't get me wrong; I understand that ascii games are powered by imagination, but it's a fanciful, surreal sort of fantasy offered by the roguelike toolset - not anything gripping.

There's also an inherent problem you will have to overcome in that a major part of fear is the "what is it" factor, and roguelike players are inundated with that question from start to finish anyway. The "what is it" factor is de-mystified in roguelikes.

Another integral part of the experience of fear is immediacy. There can't be this comfortable distance between the @ and the player. How do you overcome that?
The turn-based nature of most roguelikes is also a handicap.

What you will need to do is make the familiar (the roguelike tropes) and make them unfamiliar. That's the key to good horror. For instance, what if you were wandering around in a grey room with grey little g's that you killed and looted, then, as you suggested, were confronted by a crimson Q... most players would take a moment to stop and think. What if the Q suddenly moved between turns? THAT would get a player's adrenaline pumping. But to procedurally generate fear.... hah, like I said, you'd have to be a genius.

I suggest watching David Lynch films for a while.

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 12:29:45 AM »
Personally, any fear would be eliminated by the fact that it's turn-based. In the situation Jim posted, I would simply stop, think, "What's going on?" and continue.

What WOULD be scary is if the game was turn-based up to the point the crimson Q appeared. The game would continue to tick, but the player wouldn't be able to move or react for a few turns. That would freak me out, but good luck making it work the second, third, or fourth time :)
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corremn

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 03:45:57 AM »
I have personally experienced a few terrifying doomRL moments, I remember a bug/feature that when I pulled a handle with the 'h' command the room filled unexpectedly with 'B's and 'A's.  Ok I though, I was low on health and had no phase device so I decided to hit the keyboard short-cut for health, the 'h' key. Suddenly the room filled unexpectedly with 'B's and 'A's. Whats going on I though, I still don't have any health, terror started filling me, so I hit the health key again and .... the room filled unexpectedly with 'B's and 'A's, but this time they started to act. Their terrifying calls filled the air.  It was then that I realised that the shortcut for pulling handles and applying health was the same key, with the former taking precedence. 
I did however manage to survive due to the fact that there was a time delay from when summoned creatures can act, and thankfully the closest one took the brunt of the attack as I fled the room. 

I remember fondly those earlier days of DoomRL when it was a much better game, it truly could fill you with dread and make you forget you were playing a turn-based game... ah the memories.
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Chex Warrior

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 04:03:50 AM »
Broken Bottle was pretty horrifying, but in a tragic, regretful way.

I bet a horror RL that relied less on shock and more on atmosphere could be awesome. Imagination would be required, but thats not a bad thing.

Serefan

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 10:10:51 AM »
This is an idea that went through my mind a few times too, must be as fun to make as to play! As the last post said, you would probably have to rely on atmosphere and perhaps make it a very story-dependent game too. I'm currently in the process of making a roguelike engine from scratch myself. It won't be a horror RL, but I had a few ideas, and my friend helped me out since he's an ideamachine, so there'll be some elements that may be found a bit... Unsettling... ;D

Pueo

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 08:53:08 PM »
As long as you include plenty of scary details, it shouldn't be too hard.  Also, if you want to make a successful horror, you have to balance the combat very well, you want the "Oh, crap!" moments when five vampires appear out of nowhere, but you also want the player to be able to win, as well. Don't make it too easy to beat enemies, but don't make it too hard, either.
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Codex_SQ

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 05:04:59 AM »
Sorry for necro'ing a dead thread but I wanted to discuss some of the stuff jim mentioned because I would love to see a horror RL that is procedurally generated. 

You would have to be an artistic genius to make this work.

Then again, maybe you ARE an artistic genius.

You will need to be a complete master of the minimalist aesthetic in order to make letters on a screen scary. Don't get me wrong; I understand that ascii games are powered by imagination, but it's a fanciful, surreal sort of fantasy offered by the roguelike toolset - not anything gripping.

There's also an inherent problem you will have to overcome in that a major part of fear is the "what is it" factor, and roguelike players are inundated with that question from start to finish anyway. The "what is it" factor is de-mystified in roguelikes.

Another integral part of the experience of fear is immediacy. There can't be this comfortable distance between the @ and the player. How do you overcome that?
The turn-based nature of most roguelikes is also a handicap.

What you will need to do is make the familiar (the roguelike tropes) and make them unfamiliar. That's the key to good horror. For instance, what if you were wandering around in a grey room with grey little g's that you killed and looted, then, as you suggested, were confronted by a crimson Q... most players would take a moment to stop and think. What if the Q suddenly moved between turns? THAT would get a player's adrenaline pumping. But to procedurally generate fear.... hah, like I said, you'd have to be a genius.

I suggest watching David Lynch films for a while.

First I wanted to point out, the limitation of RL's applies to all genre's, not just horror. Yet a good few of RL's manage to overcome those limitations.  Why do some of the more famous RL's not get boring after a while?  Usually because there is plenty of entertaining stuff to do (in the case of DF) or a tough and interesting challenge. (nethack or ADOM)  I think this can be done for a horror RL too, but it's going to be more of a challenge, more so than making other types of games.

(although I'm sure you already know this jim, I'm just pointing it out for others)

But back to the horror.  Yes, horror is very different type of game compared to the others and for many reasons.  Jim made a lot of good points.  Most horror games lose their 'scare' factor once you've seen the scary cutscenes or died a few times to monsters killing you.  So I feel like the biggest issue here is this, can one make enough procedural generated content/environment/items/etc. so that it keeps players guessing?  I think music is a MUST for any horror game.  I think it would also be fine to add procedural generated music to certain parts.  (like a static noise, muffled noises, creepy sounds etc., but probably not so much for background music)  Setting up the environment is a biggey too!  Knowing what amount of lighting to give to certain areas (or any light for that matter) really tilts the fear factor.

Now as for game structure.  Turn-based?  Real-Time?  Or a mix of the two?  (have x-amount of time to make a turn)  As far as that goes, I think the developer would need to try out all three to see which is more befitting.   

One idea I had was something along the lines of "The Thing" in sci-fi space station/ship setting.  (note this is almost exactly like the game Space Station 13's - changeling mode)  You start out in a procedural generated station with a human crew:  engineers, scientists, medics, security, assistants, and so-on.  They all start slowly being killed by 'it'.  As people start dying parts of the station/ship start to fall apart from lack of maintenance.  Engineers die, the engineering section is caput causing the engines to go offline which results in huge power loss.  (no more lights, life support, machine power)  Medics die, higher rate of fatalities.  Security members die, more danger on the station.  Assistants die, less stuff gets fixed.  As the station slowly starts to decay it provides a more hazardous environment to your character.  Most of the hazards create the mood for a paranoid, "shit, fuck. Im-going-to-DIE", state of mind.  Which would go along nicely with the terror of 'The Thing' hunting down crew members and killing them one by one.  I might actually try to make this later, probably not for a long while, at least until I finish my current project.  :P         
             

Darren Grey

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 03:10:50 PM »
The problem with horror in games is that you can't have horror that's always-on.  You need gaps in between, moments to catch your breath and develop some sense of security before the threat of looming horror appears once more.  But these gaps are boring in terms of gameplay.  How do you do down time in a roguelike?

The other problem is power.  You absolutely can't have an RPG/experience system in a horror game, in my opinion.  If anything the player should get weaker, or at least feel less powerful / more restricted as they go on.  More games are about making the player feel powerful and giving them cool abilities - in horror that just ruins any aspect of fear.

For roguelikes in particular you can't have the usual easy enemies you plough through.  About the only way that would work is if you were to explain those enemies as being part of a whole - a giant amorphous being that can be hacked apart but constantly regenerates.  A good setting for this would be one where the dungeon as a whole is alive, and you are trying to fight against it and escape.

guest509

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 04:58:52 PM »
  Sort of an 'inner space' body horror type of thing? Dig it.

  Can you survive the belly of the beast?

Quendus

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 05:02:51 PM »
The problem with horror in games is that you can't have horror that's always-on.  You need gaps in between, moments to catch your breath and develop some sense of security before the threat of looming horror appears once more.  But these gaps are boring in terms of gameplay.  How do you do down time in a roguelike?
That's not a problem - fill them up with other gameplay elements. Puzzles, mild atmospheric creepiness, solving mysteries, fighting off enemies that are trivial compared to the real horrors in the game. If that was a problem, there wouldn't be any horror games.
Quote
The other problem is power.  You absolutely can't have an RPG/experience system in a horror game, in my opinion.  If anything the player should get weaker, or at least feel less powerful / more restricted as they go on.  More games are about making the player feel powerful and giving them cool abilities - in horror that just ruins any aspect of fear.
Agreed. Though there could still be a very regulated form of development of the player's abilities - for instance the player could have a few magic powers which cost an arm and a leg, only provide a temporary solution, and can only be used once per level (if the player thinks they're even worth using - ideally the consequences would be so severe that they'd rather avoid using them in any case other than impending doom). In that case you could allow access to more powerful (or at least more interesting) abilities depending on the game progress.
Examples might be escaping an enemy by phasing through a wall and permanently losing all consumables (and dropping all quest items?), killing an enemy by firing a gun (and telling the whole level exactly where you are), or being able to take a punch/kick at a ghost, at the cost of losing the limb you used for it, for the whole of the rest of the game (keep a crutch handy).
Quote
For roguelikes in particular you can't have the usual easy enemies you plough through.  About the only way that would work is if you were to explain those enemies as being part of a whole - a giant amorphous being that can be hacked apart but constantly regenerates.  A good setting for this would be one where the dungeon as a whole is alive, and you are trying to fight against it and escape.
Mostly agreed. You certainly can't have typical roguelike/RPG/FPS gameplay where you casually plough through enemies and your supplies of ammo or health potions gradually increase or decrease depending on the ratio of player power to monster power. But that kind of enemy can stil lbe around if the gameplay is subverted - your idea would be one way, another would be if there are unfightable monsters looking for you or chasing you. Then every second spent fighting windshield monsters is a second letting the grim reaper catch up.

I wouldn't be as pessimistic as jim about the possibility of an ASCII horror game, but it would certainly take some careful design. There were a few relevant enties in this year's 7DRL and ARRP.

Darren Grey

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 05:40:30 PM »
I tried the unfightable monster thing in Run from the Shadow. Even had forced down time. I'm not sure it worked very well though. But part of that might be from lack of atmosphere, sound, etc.

guest509

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 08:37:40 PM »
  Scariest roguelike I've ever played is Aliens RL. Just never enough ammo. Baddies around every corner. Sparse sounds used well. I think it's mostly the sound. Check it out.

  There's a lovecraft one as well, Infra Arcana. I wasn't too creeped out, but maybe it's worth a look. It has loss of sanity mechanics if I'm not mistaken.

NON

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Re: Peril: Experimental Survival Horror Roguelike
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 10:23:38 PM »
There's a lovecraft one as well, Infra Arcana. I wasn't too creeped out, but maybe it's worth a look. It has loss of sanity mechanics if I'm not mistaken.
It doesn't try too hard to be scary :)

Video games doesn't scare me (exception: System shock 2), so I wouldn't be qualified to make one based on the feeling of horror. Horror-themed is a different thing though.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:29:11 PM by NON »
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