What are the biggest possible turn-off in a roguelike?

[ido]

But you generally cannot expect players to already be grizzled veteran roguelike players, nor do I think it's good for the future to simply rely on the "old ways" instead of coming up with better solutions.

Does this "coming up with better solutions" equal the need to do the additional work to make good tile graphics or something like that?

It will require additional work one way or the other, making good tile graphics is just one such option.

As mentioned before, look at Vicious Orcs as a fairly decent solution that still uses ascii (but not console) graphics & more importantly much better (keyboard) interface.

I can assure you that takes plenty of work too & in fact making simple abstract graphics (triangles, squeres, circles) isn't really (much) harder than using "fancy ascii" and is less restrictive.

I think the important thing that many tiled open source games are missing is a cohesive overall aesthetic.

Take a look at DCSS for example - the main map view (ever since 0.6 or 0.7) actually looks decent, but everything around it looks like it came from a terminal based FTP program - some plain default font (arial?) with no gui elements around it, some perfectly rectangular bars with neon colors...

Sure, I tolerate it because DCSS in itself is a really good game but the aesthetic issues there have nothing to do with the actual pixel art tiles.

And if I didn't already know crawl was a really good game I probably wouldn't have felt compelled to play a game that looked like that.

[Legend]

No gamepad support (seriously)

Not being able to navigate menus with arrow keys and "enter" and "ESC" keys.

Tiles only.

No fullscreen support.

A bajillion keys that need to be used. At least cut it down to half a bajillion.

Number pad only for movement.

pc speaker "you didn't press the right key" beep.

No option to turn off the "press Space bar for more". Or at least make it so you can press any key to scroll the messages instead of only the space bar.

Monochrome only ascii.

Non-persistent dungeon level generation.

More than 20-30 dungeon levels. Especially when you need to go down then back up.

Level draining enemies.

#@%*'n Rust monsters!

Restricted gameplay for non-donating players as opposed to Extra/bonus features for donating players.

An infuriating nag screen that pops up the developers website that has pop ups itself every time you exit the game.  You know who you are.

Only being to fire/throw projectiles in a straight line in the 8 main directions as opposed to being able to target.

Eggplant wizards.

[ido]

Restricted gameplay for non-donating players as opposed to Extra/bonus features for donating players.

I think the main problem here is phrasing - instead of "donation", you are getting a free demo and have to buy the full version.

It's not more of a donation that buying a big bottle of shampoo (why are the free ones so small??).

[Legend]

I think the main problem here is phrasing - instead of "donation", you are getting a free demo and have to buy the full version.

It's not more of a donation that buying a big bottle of shampoo (why are the free ones so small??).

The donation thing is more or less on a case by case basis to me. I agree with your point about how it's phrased.

Your game, Cardinal Quest, for instance  started out as a free demo and paying a set fee, gets the customer the full game which is quite good. Can't wait to play the upcoming extended/deluxe/whatever version btw.

[Bear]

Oooh, here are some interesting ones!

No gamepad support (seriously)

How do we do that on a PC, without knowing in advance whether someone has a gamepad (and, in fact, what kind of gamepad)?  'Cause if I can do it without making the game unportable and without making it crash for people who don't have such a thing attached, I've nothing against it.

Not being able to navigate menus with arrow keys and "enter" and "ESC" keys.

Good point, and frequently neglected. I haven't implemented it yet, but it's on the list.

No fullscreen support.

Running in a term, you get that for free. Just start the term and then press f11 to go fullscreen.

Number pad only for movement.

Are you a WASD fan, or an arrows-only fan, or a vikeys fan?

No option to turn off the "press Space bar for more". Or at least make it so you can press any key to scroll the messages instead of only the space bar.

Now here's one I don't really understand.  Are you saying you'd rather have messages scroll away before you read 'em than have the game stop until you acknowledge them?  'Cause my first thought when I see "allow any key to ack messages" is that a lot of players will be happily doing some key sequence, miss a message that could have saved their lives, and then wind up looking at the game over screen without even knowing how they died. 

I mean, I agree that it's annoying, especially in games prone to "message spam".  But I don't think "any key acks messages" is nearly as good a solution as keeping message spam down by using short messages, giving repeat counts on messages if they repeat rather than just showing them one at a time, etc. 

Monochrome only ascii.

Used to be worthwhile to provide an optional monochrome mode for b/w monitors.  But not any more.

Non-persistent dungeon level generation.

Agreed by me, but it's a matter of taste.

More than 20-30 dungeon levels. Especially when you need to go down then back up.

Hmmmm.  I have a problem with "more levels than the game's content supports,"  but short or long games are fine -- it's when the levels become _repetitive_ that I'm annoyed. 

Level draining enemies.

#@%*'n Rust monsters!

I'm fine with both -- as long as there are good ways to deal with them for players who think a little.  Rust monsters that you can beat to death with a wooden club, or vampires that can't stand the sight of a good holy symbol or cross running water, are basically just a punishment for people who aren't being alert.  It's when they're inescapable that they start being a pain in the tush.

Eggplant wizards.

Uh, what?  I have no idea what you're talking about here.

[getter77]

Eggplant wizards are essentially instant-kill enemies where if you get hit, which is likely, there's nothing to be done.  Comes from the classic Kid Icarus.  I suppose one could take it to be the mountains you slam the player with as opposed to the hills they can learn to duly navigate.

[Legend]

@Bear

The thing about gamepad support was mostly a joke. I actually do use a gamepad to play roguelikes as odd as it may seem. I use a program called xpadder to map keys to my logitech dual action gamepad. It works fantastic for some games like DoomRL, Infra Arcana, Hydra Slayer, Rogue, and BerserkRL. If I was to consider an actually reasonable facsimile of gamepad support without being actual gamepad support, it would mean no more than 16 to 28 different key commands (not counting 8-way directional movement) or 32 to 48  if each command has an alternate lowercase/uppercase commands. My issue with being able to navigate all menus with the arrow keys and and enter/esc also plays a big factor.

The part about number pad only for movement is another reason I like to use a gamepad because it's not that I prefer wasd, arrows, or viskeys. It's because I play on a laptop which lacks a number pad.

I agree with your point of "more levels than the game's content supports,"

Rust Monsters/level drainers can be prepared for, but are a pain when they come around the corner or if you have to hang onto non-metal armor and weapons just in case of rust monsters when you have limited inventory space. Especially when most non-metal weapons/armor tend to be fairly weak.

Getter77 pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Eggplant Wizard comment. The latest Roguelike radio, which I was listening to while posting, reminded me of the eggplant wizard. Basically getting F'd in the A, seemingly out of the blue. Especially when you are having a great game right up until that point.

The thing about pressing space is just a pet peave. I agree that being able to press any key can result in missing an important message, but that's what message recall is for. The bet example of the most annoying way it is implemented I can think of is in Rogue.

[ido]

If I was to consider an actually reasonable facsimile of gamepad support without being actual gamepad support, it would mean no more than 16 to 28 different key commands (not counting 8-way directional movement) or 32 to 48  if each command has an alternate lowercase/uppercase commands.

Or hopefully far fewer! I see no good reason for a game to have even 16 (mandatory) commands.

[Bear]

I see no good reason for a game to have even 16 (mandatory) commands.

I respectfully disagree.  I like complex games.  I get annoyed by keys that do the exact same thing (like different keys to wear clothes, put on jewelry, or wear armor) but if a game allows a hundred different commands that are actually different ideas, that's great!  I enjoy games where there's a deep level of detail and you can make hundreds of different kinds of actions at a given moment.  And this is also why I prefer keyboard interfaces to mouse interfaces; the keyboard is just a richer channel for commands. 

Trying to use an excessively simple interface for me is frustrating.  It's kind of like going into a Lithuanian restaurant, and you don't speak or understand Lithuanian.  You can get by with pointing (and clicking) at the pictures on the menu if your waiter is patient with you.  But he's not going to be able to communicate what the special of the day is, nor accept your instructions about how to prepare the food you order, nor be able to answer your questions about how it's prepared and whether, eg, it includes nuts which you're allergic to.  Or, you can stumble along, non-fluently, by pulling out your Lithuanian Phrase book (or the drop-down menus) and painstakingly pointing out one sentence at a time. If you do this with a real waiter, you'd better be an extravagant tipper; you're wasting his time.  Worse still, you're also wasting your own time, as compared to just being able to speak the language. 

And, to me, a rich set of keyboard commands is speaking the language.  It's easy and you can just say what you mean instead of hunting it down on menus.  A richer language (more commands) means more different things you can communicate. If you think a game only needs 16 commands, then it probably really *is* a game that wouldn't need simplified to run with just a mouse.  But that probably means it's not the kind of roguelike game I most enjoy.

Minimal-command-set games that are actually good tend to be highly abstract games.  For example, in Chess there is only one command; MOVE.  and it's a good game.  But, it's not a roguelike. 

Bear

[ido]

Well, yeah if I had the time to learn all these commands for every game maybe I'd agree with you.

e.g. I played frozen depths on a very long train ride with pretty much nothing else to do, so I had time to learn its many (not sure if more than 16, not counting movement keys, but many) keys.

But I would have never bothered to do that at home, I'd have far more likely moved on to the next game out of literally dozens in my to-play queue.

[Darren Grey]

A well-designed complex games should have both - the menus for the obscure commands, but also the shortcuts for those who know the game in-depth and want to play more smoothly.  This is how complex programmes like Excel work, and there's no reason it shouldn't apply to game design also.

[Z]

A well-designed complex games should have both - the menus for the obscure commands, but also the shortcuts for those who know the game in-depth and want to play more smoothly.  This is how complex programmes like Excel work, and there's no reason it shouldn't apply to game design also.

The two options are practically equivalent. Provided that you have a "?" keyboard shortcut (which can also be activated with mouse) which shows a ?-screen which lists all the commands available. And you can execute a command from the ?-screen by arrow navigation and mouse. And that menu lists hotkeys for all commands. And that menu does not break the immersion by being the standard Windows menu or whatever.

I don't learn all the commands for Frozen Depths or whatever. When I find a new piece of equipment, I just press "?" to know how to wear it. When I find a sage, I just press "?" to know how to chat to him. When I learn a new skill, I press "?" to know skill-related commands. That's enough and takes just a few minutes.

[ido]

I don't learn all the commands for Frozen Depths or whatever. When I find a new piece of equipment, I just press "?" to know how to wear it. When I find a sage, I just press "?" to know how to chat to him. When I learn a new skill, I press "?" to know skill-related commands. That's enough and takes just a few minutes.

I think that's holding our developers to a very low bar of usability, and it wouldn't pass for most other genres.

[NON]

This is relevant to the discussion, and expresses my views on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNYoOjQjsPw#t=17m16s

They talk about the old text parser interface vs point and click interface in adventure games. The old parser interface allowed for a vastly richer command set (and therefore game) than the point and click interface.

I want the Roguelikes I play to have a huge command set. Now that doesn't mean that they must have a huge number of keyboard commands. If some clever things can be done to reduce the number of keys, that's excellent. However, the game should not "go out of its way" to make the interface easier to learn. Depth should come first, ease of learning second.

[Legend]

Personally, I think 16 to 28 different commands seems quite reasonable to have a satisfyingly complex set of actions. Some things like Wear/Wield, I feel there's not much reason to have them as 2 separate commands.

Having to key in separate letters to pick inventory items can be a pain too. It is definitely quicker than having use arrow keys and enter to select an item if you have large amount of items. But at least the option to use both ways would be nice.

I feel some actions could be combined and simplified into a general "use" or "apply" command. Like digging and lighting torches. Unless the game has numerous things to light, it is only being used the same way each time. ZEven if there are numerous things to light, you could "use" the fire source on several things anyways just like you could "use" a shovel to dig.