winning moria, and some statistics

[benasselstine]

Hi folks,

I just beat moria after 16 years of trying.  I modified the source code to make a saved-game every time the character wasn't resting, running or paralyzed.  After winning the game I had 7gb of saves, and I calculated some stats.  I thought I'd share them with you:

    * It took 17 days.
    * 80 hours of gameplay (4.7 hours per day)
    * 216 days of in-game time. my elf didn't age a year.
    * 81% of the turns were spent running or resting (or paralyzed).
    * spent the most time on character level 37, then 32 and then 31.
    * the first 26 character levels took 1/10th of the time it took to obtain the next 12 levels.
    * 1116 monsters killed per day.
    * 170 trips into town.
    * 82 trips into town, excluding short hops from 50 feet.

Also I made some graphs:
    * Levels Over Time
    * Maximum Mana and Hitpoints Over Time
    * Hitpoints Over Time
    * Depth Over Time
    * Experience Over Time
    * Monsters Slain Over Time

For the graphs, see the webpage at: http://www.superunprivileged.org/moria/moria-stats/

How long until a roguelike implements time travel into the past?  a 7gb save file is a good thing!

[Ex]

Very nicely done!! I love these graphs, they're awesome and may come in handy in programming my own game. Thank you! I'd love to see more of these Good work!

[corremn]

Thats cool, congrats on the win.

I would love to see normalised HP over time, i.e out of 100%, that way you can see where those close calls easier.

[benasselstine]

I've added normalized hp as a new chart.  Thanks for the idea!

http://www.superunprivileged.org/moria/moria-stats/

[Ex]

I've added normalized hp as a new chart.  Thanks for the idea!

http://www.superunprivileged.org/moria/moria-stats/

The really interesting thing is that you'd think that there would be more close calls toward the end of the game than the beginning. In fact, if I were designing a game, I'd want to design it to have more close calls at the end than the beginning. In other words, I wonder if this trend of close calls at the beginning is intentional or an unintentional imbalance of low level difficulty?

[benasselstine]

The elf/mage race/class combination is the easiest combination to win the game with.  The trade-off is being particularly weak at the start of the game.  I suspect the chart would look very different for a warrior.

As for the "more close calls at the end" point, it's difficult to do with moria because the player is actively trying to mitigate that risk.  A successful player will purposely spend more time at safe depths rather than unsafe ones.

[Fenrir]

I don't get very deep in roguelikes, but I imagine that dying later in the game is more frustrating than dying earlier in the game, so there may be some merit in having the early game more risky than the later. Of course, I'm no designer by any stretch of the imagination, so there is the ever-present threat of being inexcusably wrong.

[corremn]

The really interesting thing is that you'd think that there would be more close calls toward the end of the game than the beginning. In fact, if I were designing a game, I'd want to design it to have more close calls at the end than the beginning. In other words, I wonder if this trend of close calls at the beginning is intentional or an unintentional imbalance of low level difficulty?

The thing about Moria is that you can progress at any rate you like, and hence play as dangerous as you like. By going deeper quickly you level quicker and have much more challenge/fun i think.  Once you are experienced and disciplined enough to not do any thing stupid that is.  Moria can be criticized for the fact that you can go very slowly and with enough game knowledge eventually you are almost guaranteed victory.

My last victory I had many near death experiences because I was not level scumming or stat leveling at all.   I did manage to find two rings of speed and a staff of speed right before I met the balrog which helped, and I had no potions of invulnerability left after the fight.  That was exhilarating!

[benasselstine]

Moria can be criticized for the fact that you can go very slowly and with enough game knowledge eventually you are almost guaranteed victory.  My last victory I had many near death experiences because I was not level scumming or stat leveling at all.

I take exception to the term of "level scumming" (as defined on this page: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Cheating#Level_scumming) because it's not cheating.  The other word that we see "scumming" in is save-scumming, which is cheating by any measure because the game explicitly doesn't allow more than one life in one game.

Pillar dancing and farming, and managing what level your character is at are all techniques to win the game.  The game allows these techniques to exist, and doesn't try to prevent them.  The player who uses these techniques shouldn't be criticized as cheaters.

The _game_ really can be criticized allowing these techniques to exist that make the game easier.  Preventing these techniques would make the game more difficult, but it would also upset the balance of the game (e.g. always forcing the character to go down stairs, like rogue.)  Speaking as a programmer; getting that good balance back would be too difficult for me.  Speaking as a player; the game is hard enough already!

[corremn]

When I said it "can be criticized" I didn't mean I actually criticized it. I just meant that some people *can* criticize it.

I love the game and have "level scummed" on many occasions, and did not mean that it is cheating. Cheating is going against the game design, level scumming is a perfectly normal way of playing this game, just like re-rolling stats. 

I was surprised that you can actually play the game the game without *much* level-scumming. My last game I really just rushed down the levels, and you level up so much quicker that way. But you will need to have phase door/portal/teleport spells handy though and really pick you fights.