Legerdemain - A major roguelike, right?!

[TSMI]

When I have been trying Legerdemain, I got to the pub, and then the overarching story was like "try to go somewhere, if you are not killed then return to the pub and go somewhere else, or the same place to hunt in this easy place again, if you are kiled (as you usually are) then awaken in the pub and try again or go look for an easier place". IMO that really loses the roguelike feeling.

If you replace "pub" with "character creation screen" it pretty much exactly describes a typical ADOM game for me:D

But yeah, the game would be even better if the dungeons were generated procedurally each time you load a save or something.

[Darren Grey]

So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.

Procedural content and permadeath are two of the most defining aspects of the genre.  Everything else in the Berlin Interpretation appears heavily in plenty of other games, but random dungeons and permadeath are nigh unique to roguelikes (which is unfortunate reall - I think procedural generation in particular has a lot to offer other games).  Legerdemain really is on the fringe of the genre, regardless of what ruleset a few guys in a room once made up.

Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.  It's a great game in its own right, and certainly draws some nice inspiration from roguelikes.  I'd personally not hesitate to call it a roguelike-like myself, and I don't think it's any better or worse for whatever label is put on it.

[Z]

Yeah, IMO Legerdemain, Diablo, Spelunky, and Dwarf Fortress (fortress mode) are mixes of Roguelike and some other genre, not true roguelikes. I think that's a compromise that we should all agree on.

You could also call that roguelike-likes or semi-roguelikes (which would also include Desktop Dungeons, Decker, and Triangle Wizard, which I have not included in the previous list because I see no second genre mixed in, but still they are not roguelikes, as the tactics are completely different).

[Fenrir]

So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.

The Berlin Interpretation lists your defining qualities about the Roguelike genre. You accept that definition without offering any reason that it should be accepted instead of mine. It is on the Wiki, so it must be true!

I would also speculate that you are not in any way qualified to be a spokesperson for "most players".

Also, how many "like"s are you willing to slap on stuff just to keep the word "rogue"? I do not get it. This genre does not make games in any way more legitimate.

[TSMI]

So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.

The Berlin Interpretation lists your defining qualities about the Roguelike genre. You accept that definition without offering any reason that it should be accepted instead of mine. It is on the Wiki, so it must be true!

You are one weirdo on the internet with a definition of roguelike. As I understand it, the Berlin Interpretation was an IRL meeting of several weirdoes on the internet reaching a comprehensive consensus on a definition of a roguelike. True, it's not exactly a stone tablet handed down from the Gods. But it is a well written, clear, consensus based definition, and it definitely trumps one persons definition of a couple of lines in a forum discussion.

And no it's not mine. I had no part in it, and I disagree with bits of it.

Also, how many "like"s are you willing to slap on stuff just to keep the word "rogue"? I do not get it. This genre does not make games in any way more legitimate.

I don't think excluding games like LDM or any other game that isn't a textbook roguelike, from discussions about roguelikes, is of any purpose at all.

[Fenrir]

You are one weirdo on the internet with a definition of roguelike. As I understand it, the Berlin Interpretation was an IRL meeting of several weirdoes on the internet reaching a comprehensive consensus on a definition of a roguelike. True, it's not exactly a stone tablet handed down from the Gods. But it is a well written, clear, consensus based definition, and it definitely trumps one persons definition of a couple of lines in a forum discussion.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Why does the quantity of people involved with its conception make it more valid? Why does the number of lines of text involved make it more valid? Why does the fact that it was "IRL" make it more real? Well, you said it was "an IRL meeting [...] on the Internet", so, unless you are implying that this part of the Internet is not real life or something, I have no idea what you mean, and I still wonder how any of it makes the Berlin Interpretation more valid. This is so flatly absurd that I can only presume that you are joking.

[TSMI]

Now you're just being obtuse. I've said all I have to say anyway - I'll let you get the last word in.

[Z]

I think it would be interesting to see if the people behind the Berlin Interpretation accept Legerdemain as a roguelike. It is quite possible that they would not accept it even if it works in 6/9 points. Maybe the points missed are the important ones, or maybe just the intangible roguelike spirit, which cannot be described by simple rules, has disappeared when mixed with interactive fiction.

Such things are not so easily classifiable. Technically, Decker and Desktop Dungeons seem to have all tactical features listed in the Berlin Interpretation. However, they are tactically completely different from roguelikes, and for that reason I don't consider them roguelikes. They just satisfy the letter, not the spirit.

[ido]

I think it would be interesting to see if the people behind the Berlin Interpretation accept Legerdemain as a roguelike. It is quite possible that they would not accept it even if it works in 6/9 points. Maybe the points missed are the important ones, or maybe just the intangible roguelike spirit, which cannot be described by simple rules, has disappeared when mixed with interactive fiction.

As one of the people present at the time, I want to say that there are some points people seem to overlook:

1. "Roguelike" is a spectrum, not a boolean attribute. A game can be more or less roguelike, and I would personally say LDM is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum between "canon" (angband, crawl, nethack, rogue) and not-roguelike (pacman, farmville, starcraft).

2. The reason behind the Berlin Definition is "for the roguelike community to better understand what the community is studying". It's not to create an exclusive club of pure-breed roguelikes, separated from the plebes and mongrels on the other side.

[Omnivorous]

"Indie Press Revolution has recently picked up our CRPG Legerdemain as one of its newest titles. They are a game distributor specializing in independently produced, creator-owned pen-and-paper roleplaying systems. This could open up roguelike-style games to a whole new market, so we are very excited about that." -From http://roguelikefiction.com

I suppose that's a good way to put it; "roguelike-style games" :-)

To be honest, when I found the game and I wrote this post, I had played it quite a bit and I hadn't really thought about the fact that dungeons weren't procedurally generated. (Since it isn't, there's really no reason to wander about the same dungeons over and over again anyway.) And I felt abit dissapointed when I started consciously thinking about the fact and soon after stopped playing it.

I don't agree with the people claiming Legerdemain is "just a rpg dressed up as a roguelike" because even though permadeath and random dungeon-creation is important and usual attributes for a roguelike, it still has alot of the "RL-feel" to it - perhaps because of the things TSMI is listing.

Legerdemain also have alot of (positive) attributes that -no other- roguelike has, which makes me (as a RL-enthusiast) want to embrace it as a well-polished, interesting, original roguelike! :-)

[Darren Grey]

Maybe we should start labelling games as hardcore and softcore roguelikes? 

My own titles would likely be on the softer side, lacking the complexity of the major RLs and deviating away from traditional attacking mechanics.  I think most people find the differences interesting rather than complain about them being non-roguelike.

2. The reason behind the Berlin Definition is "for the roguelike community to better understand what the community is studying". It's not to create an exclusive club of pure-breed roguelikes, separated from the plebes and mongrels on the other side.

A very good point.  Also it's generally called the "Berlin Interpretation" rather than "Definition", for precisely the reason that it's not out to categorise games, but to interpret the genre.  Alas that it is so often misused.

It is fun to try to break the Interpretation though, and to try and explore the limits of the genre.  With Unstoppable I set out to include a lot of roguelikes tropes but in barely recognisable ways (like the on-the-fly level generation by constructor bots).  Rules exist to be broken, after all    I think we'll find that as more games are made with roguelike elements our traditional definition of the genre will change dramatically.

[Psiweapon]

How the fork do you survive the first dungeon!? Even better, how in holy hell do you get out of it?!!?

Sheesh, the game looks awesome, but the second thing that sneezes in my direction kills me.

[Pteriforever]

If it's a 2D, grid-based, turn-based RPG than it's a roguelike. End of issue.

[ido]

If it's a 2D, grid-based, turn-based RPG than it's a roguelike. End of issue.

Except that roguelikes are not RPGs...And there are other important factors such as procedural generation and perma-death

[Darren Grey]

And there are a lot of 2D grid-based turn-based games out there which aren't roguelikes.  Heck, Civilisation even features procedural generation and a hardcore permadeath feature!

I suppose ultimately the rogue is in the player