Author Topic: Are humans useless in stone soup?  (Read 15035 times)

supified

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Are humans useless in stone soup?
« on: October 12, 2010, 06:19:28 PM »
So I've been playing humans for a while now, exclusively and what I've come to is despite being considered a relatively easy to master race, they're pretty useless.  Take a look at their lack of specialization, it basically means that early to mid game they're terrible at just about everything.  Maybe there is something to be said about them for late game when you might like a race that can pick up other things fairly easily, but I feel like to get the ability levels where they need to be it still doesn't make a lot of sense of using humans.  I just dont' know if there is enough exp/time to put into grinding new skills to make humans a even half useful class.

I'd love to hear from experienced stone soup players on this.

kipar

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 04:45:02 AM »
Their advantage is that they level up relatively fast. Only Kobolds, Halfling and Hill Orcs level up with the same speed, so if your character (e.g. Necromancer) don't fit these three races, you can choose Human.
 
I didn't played humans though. In fact, I play only mummies (and I've cleaned Zot:5 with my last character), so human's aptitudes look pretty good for me :) .

Bear

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 11:35:01 PM »
I'm actually annoyed with games that give every other intelligent species the same gifts that humans have, plus more.

Compared to most other species on this planet, humans have incredible daylight color vision, really excellent endurance for long-term low-output efforts (up to incredible endurance for moderate-output efforts if trained human athletes are involved), are amazingly powerful swimmers for a species whose primary abode is on land, and have the ability to eat almost anything that's not on fire.  And we've even been known to make exceptions to that last rule.

In Crawl, like most roguelike games, other fictional intelligent species inherit all these advantages along with what we humans consider to be our primary advantages, which are intelligence, language, and opposable thumbs. But it doesn't have to be so, and I think in general it shouldn't be.

About human athletes and endurance, one example.  "Primitive" human hunters traditionally catch prey such as deer, by literally running after it until it falls over dead, or unable to run any more.  Even without much training, if a human and a horse both start walking 30 miles a day, a week later the human will be 200 miles down the road and still complaining that his feet hurt, and the horse will be dead.

About eating things: Aside from wood there is almost nothing on this planet that is edible to more than one or two other species, that isn't edible to humans.  From the pole to the equator, on every continent, humans can find enough to eat.  Sometimes we have to cook it first, but this is still amazing!  Not only can we drink milk (as adults!) without getting sick, we actively culture bacteria so we can reproduce our favorite ways to let it rot before we eat it!  Think about this: Chiles evolved a neurotoxin called capsaicin, which directly stimulates mammalian pain receptors, specifically in order to prevent mammals from eating their seed pods.  Humans enjoy it, and actively breed chiles to have more.  You can almost hear mother nature weeping with frustration. And we routinely eat things like chocolate, garlic, and onions, that would kill our household pets. There is almost no animal whatsoever (including we humans ourselves) that has never been traditionally cooked and eaten by some humans  somewhere (usually in China, but that's a whole different story).

One downside of our human heritage is that we get thirsty a lot.  We need a lot more water, and need it more often,  than most species, even accounting for our size. This may or may not be related to the fact that we're better swimmers than any other land animal. And, we can't run as fast as most quadrupeds nor fly the way most other bipeds can.  Oh well.  Can't have everything.

Bear

Etinarg

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 01:11:10 PM »
Amazing thoughts :)

One thing that I came across though, is that humans color perception is good, but not that amazing. Birds and reptiles have a wider color range to see, and insects may not have a wider range, but can see colors which we cannot see.

Compared to other mammals we are lucky though, to have re-developed a third color receptor type that was somehow lost in evolution.

Z

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 04:16:04 PM »
When I read the title, I thought "what, bots can play DCSS better than humans??".

I think people who deal with fantasy races do that by comparing them with themselves, that is, humans. They don't know that humans have anything special (except intelligence, but it is obvious that most fantasy races share that). That's why humans are considered average in most settings...

Ancient

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 07:39:16 PM »
Yes, we humans are continually wronged in roguelikes. I cannot remember any game with race choice which would make me willfully pick humans. Unless beastmen from ZAngband count.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Fenrir

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 03:43:56 PM »
That's all because humans are used as a baseline. Dwarfs are short (compared to humans) trolls are stupid (compared to humans) elves are good at magic (compared to humans).

I'm no expert, but I wager it has to do with the fact that being balanced is not rewarded. Being very good at a handful of things is better than having an average amount of skill in everything.

Ex

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 10:42:00 PM »
Compared to most other species on this planet, humans have incredible daylight color vision, really excellent endurance for long-term low-output efforts (up to incredible endurance for moderate-output efforts if trained human athletes are involved), are amazingly powerful swimmers for a species whose primary abode is on land, and have the ability to eat almost anything that's not on fire.  And we've even been known to make exceptions to that last rule.
I like all these ideas. Humans do have quite a few traits that no other animals can match. Endurance, vision and swimming are a few good ones. I'd also like to point out how excellent humans are at throwing things, and also aiming in general.

Early man was very, very good with a thrown spear, and with a bow people were unbelievably good. Not just in terms of aim, but also in terms of sheer force. There used to be archers who could shoot a wooden arrow through metal armor or trees at hundreds of feet away with pinpoint accuracy. In roguelikes, humans almost never have good accuracy or good strength with bows or thrown weapons, but those are the two things that people are the best at. With rocks alone people could kill at large distances with great accuracy.

Also, people can survive for fairly long periods of time without food. And we can eat an insane amount of different types of food. People can and have even eaten raw meat. Granted, it makes us very sick every once in a while, but we can still do it. Our versatility in what we can eat is never properly shown in roguelikes.

Over all, I totally agree that humans need to have better abilities in roguelikes in general.

Shin Majin

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 01:38:24 PM »
I really want to play races with more interesting drawbacks than "is dumber,' "is weaker," or "is slower."  I want to play a race that's colorblind (would make identifying potions a hassle...), or one that has no opposable thumbs (would require considerable compensation.)

Z

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 06:38:57 PM »
I have a race which is blind and has echolocation instead, and some partially implemented colorblindness, but I am not sure whether this is done in a very interesting way... (and when I will release that)

jim

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 08:37:42 PM »
Despite the highfalutin' aims of the devs, there's no doubt that some races are just plain better than others, though in different respects. Demigods in particular face a sometimes crippling mid-game. Ghouls late-game are typically running on fumes. Early game, kiss that Kenku goodbye. Meanwhile, a cautious and experienced player can win with a minotaur fighter maybe half the time without being insanely OCD.

Humans are kinda interesting in that they face a fairly constant level of challenge throughout. That's one way of looking at it, at least.

jim

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 08:49:18 PM »

About eating things: Aside from wood there is almost nothing on this planet that is edible to more than one or two other species, that isn't edible to humans.  From the pole to the equator, on every continent, humans can find enough to eat.  Sometimes we have to cook it first, but this is still amazing!  Not only can we drink milk (as adults!) without getting sick, we actively culture bacteria so we can reproduce our favorite ways to let it rot before we eat it!  Think about this: Chiles evolved a neurotoxin called capsaicin, which directly stimulates mammalian pain receptors, specifically in order to prevent mammals from eating their seed pods.  Humans enjoy it, and actively breed chiles to have more.  You can almost hear mother nature weeping with frustration. And we routinely eat things like chocolate, garlic, and onions, that would kill our household pets. There is almost no animal whatsoever (including we humans ourselves) that has never been traditionally cooked and eaten by some humans  somewhere (usually in China, but that's a whole different story).

One downside of our human heritage is that we get thirsty a lot.  We need a lot more water, and need it more often,  than most species, even accounting for our size. This may or may not be related to the fact that we're better swimmers than any other land animal. And, we can't run as fast as most quadrupeds nor fly the way most other bipeds can.  Oh well.  Can't have everything.

Bear


That... was beautiful.

Vanguard

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Re: Are humans useless in stone soup?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2010, 11:30:34 AM »
Humans always get the shaft in roguelikes, but I play them anyway on principle.