Acquiring feedback for your roguelike project

[jim]

You know, though, it makes for an interesting topic. It really does. I'm just not sure that we're fit as a community to be having the discussion. We're just too strange and OCD to be relied upon to dissect the fine line between art and trash... it's not that we're stupid, it's just that we're maybe a little myopic. You really need to take in the world (or at least a medium) with a wide-angle lens before you're fit to offer meaningful commentary on an artistic submission. I don't know if that's us, guys...

Take the film Fight Club, for instance. That was a watershed moment for film criticism. The movie was almost intrinsically good, and critics in turn revealed not the movie but themselves as intelligent or otherwise through their appreciation for or hatred of the film.

I think that the hoax offers up some of that same potential - though in the opposite fashion. I personally believe that the SKR was essentially empty of spirit, reveling in evil, and that those who appreciate "what it has to offer" are completely off-base in terms of what they like about gaming, maybe even about life. But unfortunately a meaningful inquiry into whether I'm right or wrong is very hard b/c, as mentioned above, we're as a group extremely eccentric, and no-one outside the roguelike community gives much of a shit.

Jimbo turns away, hastily scrawls something on a cartoonishly oversized signpost, and holds it up for Fenrir to see. It reads: "Sorry dude.... it's a slow day at work." Jimbo then flies away on rocket boots to go fight crime.

[Fenrir]

Fenrir sternly watches Jimbo go sailing off into the skies with flying footwear.

You know...

The great wolf pauses to watch Jimbo fade out of sight.

...few things are so puzzling as being mocked and not fully understanding how.

A rear paw shoots up to Fenrir's left ear and scratches lightly.

I did understand the part where he said that, because we have unusual taste, our opinions about art don't matter. No such thing as objective art, as far as I know, so it's not like we can be wrong about it, can we? Fenrir lowers his leg and heaves a heavy sigh. Not like I would know anything about that. Bah, now I'm beating the dead horse.

[jim]

Jimbo soars overhead, calling downward.

I wouldn't hazard to mock you, Fenrir - you're probably smarter than me and I have a fragile ego.

Actually, what I was thinking of was this feminist 20th century lit&film criticism class that I took in junior college about 8-9 years ago. They looked at a lot of wonderful, classic stories: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Next, Mean Streets, Metropolis, Catcher in the Rye among others, and of course had to throw in The Beantrees and My Big Fat Greek Wedding...

Now, at the top of the list are some of the most powerful stories around. Feminist criticism mostly wants to say that they devalue women. The bulk of the writing done on these gendered stories is an exploration of precisely how they devalue women and speculates as to the far-reaching effects of that devaluation. And while it's true that the last 2000 years or so have generally been pretty sexist, and while it's also true that one of the core goals of feminist criticism is to deconstruct and thereby weaken the misogynist stranglehold that exists over the public imagination, to spend hour after hour of class time focusing on the moral flaws of artistic submissions, ignoring their virtues, distorts the imagination of the students being taught - it fosters myopia and renders meaningful contributions to the critical arena at large (where they don't really have to give a shit about feminist tenets) problematic at best. The lens is too narrow; it becomes polemic.

And I think we're guilty of something like that here. We need to be wearing an amulet of the gourmand as we take in these games if we want our opinions on them to illuminate (however humbly) the whole art v trash discussion. "Original" doesn't mean good - and I dispute that there's anything original about SKR: don't you have to kill a farmer in ADOM to get the ultra ending? Likewise, "depraved" doesn't mean bad - see Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy.

I would like to see an earnest exploration of the minor SKR hoax phenomenon... I just don't think we have it in us. Prove me wrong, Fido!

Jimbo's boots run out of fuel and he plummets over the edge of a cliff, letting loose with a "Yah-hoo-hoo-hoo-hooooooo" ala Goofy.

[ido]

I don't necessarily disagree with your main point, but I would like to point out that the "witty" flavor text was getting a bit old in the tooth when it was only Fenrir doing it, I don't think we'd really lose anything if it remain his shtick exclusively.

[jim]

Point taken.

[Fenrir]

Point taken as well, Ido.

[Conal]

Hmm nice community perspective here, I get blatently trolled for posting in an active post, you guys see it as okay to go blatently offtopic, point is no matter the semnatics you put on it I dont care what you think so please refrain from posting your offtopic trash Fenrir, nice post degradation, I'm sure thats satisified you.(Best real help to the community is if you dont like a topic or dont agree with it, go and speak to an Admin in private or just don't answer it, not adhering to this just makes you come across bad and that is putting it politely, I can't believe whats happened to this topic, is it jealousy perhaps that a mere concept is netting a massive amount of interest?)

If the Admin wants to lock the thread feel free but I respectively ask you to only answer me with on topic stuff Fenrir as I am not intersted in whether you think I'm beating a dead horse; I can see you are a pretentious twat as well, owing to the fact you start clarifying what "beating a dead horse means"

Start picking up spelling mistakes next and you fit the profile of a real asshole.

I will treat the final posts with the contempt they deserve since its clearly a case of the "me to!" mentality If you don't follow the point of that go use google.

Your post counts dont impress me either but I can see this community is going the same way as many on the web. I come here for some light discussion and to speak about, as well as participate in Development. I really detest what you represent Fenrir, you are the typical example of what is in essence the catalyst for communities going bad long term, however I am sure it will be myself who gets the most hassle for this since for most, respect is governed by post count. I believe respect is earned not demanded. (Silly troll, go pester someone else who cares, high five if you or one of your alt accounts doesnt answer this though!)

Thats all your getting though, I have just wasted 5 mins or so of my life reading this trash! Enjoy yourself in your herd, safe in the knowledge that you managed to drop a community member in the crap who could not be done with the trviality of your comments, also be proud that you have derailed a post and you and your buddys can wallow in group stupidity now until the Admin has to lock this thread. (In future maybe let an Admin deal with forum affairs you jobsworth - only you dont work here do you? Else that description would fit well)

[Krice]

all the more modern succesful games such as :

Elona
Dwarf Fortress

Are orginal in some ways OR they take the genre to new heights.

Both guesses wrong. DF and Elona are popular, because they have a lot of gameplay content. In other words they are "large scale", something that -most- new roguelike projects are not. Games like ADOM are not original, but ADOM has its fans, because the size of the game. Sometimes original ideas are ok, but as we can see from some 7DRLs (that have a somewhat original idea) the idea itself is not really that important if there is not much to play.

[kipar]

DF and Elona are popular, because they have a lot of gameplay content.

This is not the only cause. The game can have very much content, but people won't see all these stories, locations, collectible items, if the gameplay process itself isn't fun.

So the original idea isn't enough for great game, but a "large-scality" isn't enough too. You need both.

[Slash]

Let us please remember the codex of the temple (paragraph 1.2).

Let's also become on-topic again, and live happily....

[Krice]

So the original idea isn't enough for great game, but a "large-scality" isn't enough too. You need both.

Well, there are lots of popular games without an original idea. Roguelikes have long been connected to D&D which I have always thought limiting and poor gameplay system, possibly more suitable for tabletops where it was invented. Actually, not a single one of major five is original. Just think about that.

[kipar]

It will be so easy to think that one should just add a lot of content to his game and it will be popular (and he'll acquire a lot of feedback for it), but sadly it isn't so.
Well, I agree with you that originality isn't required for being popular roguelike. But i can't agree that being "large-scale" is the only cause of popularity for such games as Elona.
They are fun to play - and a size of a game's world or number of ways you can choose isn't the only cause of this.

[getter77]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/30/wot-i-think-beautiful-escape-dungeoneer/

Somewhat related to the original gist of things.

[Conal]

Both guesses wrong. DF and Elona are popular, because they have a lot of gameplay content. In other words they are "large scale", something that -most- new roguelike projects are not. Games like ADOM are not original, but ADOM has its fans, because the size of the game. Sometimes original ideas are ok, but as we can see from some 7DRLs (that have a somewhat original idea) the idea itself is not really that important if there is not much to play.

While its a completely common ressponse to say our comments pertaining to such things are very subjective, I do understand the points you make.

With regards to taking the genre to new heights I still do think I am correct in that Elona achieves this via quite massive scope in terms or quests and world, and this certainly has an appeal, also Elona , in my eyes anyway does well in the graphics department whilst still maintaining the fact its a roguelike. (If it doesnt take the game to new heights I would hope thats because such games have already been done to such a standard and beyond; if this were the case please enlighten me   )

Thanks for the link Getter, my enthusiasm for this concept stems from the fact it has the potential to bring people into the roguelike community, I have  been trying to get my group of Uni friends to play for over 2 years then we find out about this and instead of me trying to brainwash them into playing they mention to myself about trying one! While I can see both sides of the coin regarding how people could love or loathe this fake concept it is actually bringing new people into the roguelike community(Slight deviation getter but I believe you may have helped me with ai code in the past or given me advice, I didnt get it but I have nailed it now and I am just about complete with regards to makng a space invaders game in j2me, for a while there I thought I had got to a point where I would not be able to improve my coding so very pleased the obssesiveness has paid off! - see other post about that if you havent spotted it already)

Large scale does play a part in Elona I agree but while that be a valid point I personally think Elona does break the mold a touch since roguelikes generally dont have storys , LOTS of quests and graphics as well as custom save systems, genetic engineering and what I see as very original game subsystems. Dont get me wrong Im not saying its some perfect game but its clear to see the affort thats went into it and players who get this impression are going to more willingly invest time, additionally scope as a sole quality is actually many times a negative since people just see it as a grind fest. I think the roguelikes must feel alive so to speak for them to not be more than a flash in the pan. (I really hope someone can point me in he direction of  some really nice roguelikes which are original and better than Elona if Im seen as incorrect by most; this is fine btw, just saying )

Perhaps I should have stated that some of Elonas subsystems were original and been a bit clearer in my initial attempt to share my views on the said games.

Im kinda in shock this is back on topic though, thank you all and Slash, I will go re-read the rules, cheers

Just to finalise and be on topic, I shall just mention the fact that what I state about friends doesnt even cover the other aspect of how many new projects that concept is going to generate/IS generating! Now it is still possible to look at the negative side that many people undertaking such a project wont have the ability to follow it through but on the positive side , so many people and/or teams working on such a project, as time passes must surely yield some new games in the future which pertain to this concept?

[Krice]

and a size of a game's world or number of ways you can choose isn't the only cause of this.

Size is a big factor since players compare games to major roguelikes. I know I do. I want a roguelike game to have complexity and size.