Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Programming => Topic started by: Etinarg on January 11, 2010, 03:33:58 PM
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I am pondering about a dungeon exploration game, but I want no combat there. Now it seems pretty boring ... and most of the RPG game design talk somehow involves combat, for example the major way to get items or gold is killing monsters usually.
(Peaceful = no killing of things, so no hunting of animals either).
What could be in a peaceful dungeon exploration game, to make it interesting?
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Traps and puzzles are where you'll want to focus your effort, I think.
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Puzzles are on my list. Although most puzzles seem to be a bit boring eventually, too. A few ideas I have collected here:
http://www.funkelwerk.de/library/index.php?n=Library.Puzzles
For traps I'd like to do something likes this:
http://www.funkelwerk.de/library/index.php?n=Library.Traps
I'm wondering if there is more to do in an exploration game? Surely finding treasures and rewards will be fine already, but maybe it can be wrapped more nicely :)
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Interesting Idea and I hope you can pull it off.
I'm not entirely sure Traps and Puzzles can work in a Roguelike though. Apart from some random damage when you walk upon one. At least not in a random environment. Puzzles have to be cleverly thought through for them to be actually fun.
For example:
I didn't quite like the random puzzles from Bioshock, they were randomly generated but still provided some challenge because of the time restraint. In a turn based roguelike, time isn't a factor. However, once you have ample time to think, easy and random puzzles turn dull. So if you can pull it off, I'll be as impressed as I'm intrigued at the moment.
Still, reading through your library, I had some sort of silly idea about this.
Silly Idea:
Don't create randomized maps, instead provide a very simplistic Level Editor. Award score based on the amount of turns it took the player to get to the final treasure and back out to the surface, and perhaps quantity of other loot.
This way, players could create dungeons of their own with a system of complex traps and puzzles to their liking for others to explore. The others can race through it and try to earn as much a possible in as little time as possible, competing for score. For extra bonus points, some sort of demo playback system would make it so much more interesting for the creator, to see how someone else deals with the dungeon creation.
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Don't create randomized maps, instead provide a very simplistic Level Editor. Award score based on the amount of turns it took the player to get to the final treasure and back out to the surface, and perhaps quantity of other loot.
This way, players could create dungeons of their own with a system of complex traps and puzzles to their liking for others to explore. The others can race through it and try to earn as much a possible in as little time as possible, competing for score.
This is a very interesting idea :) Some people like creation as much as others like to play through the created playfields, and I'm sure this will be good fun for a lot of people.
I don't know if I can pull it off. I'm wrestling with this idea since a long time and so far I always ended with the feeling "this will be boring". But fighting games are so plenty now, and so manifold that I don't think the world needs another one.
An idea from a former project was to have hostile environments (very cold/hot, bad air ...) and the player first must find or assemble equipment to survive there. This is just a more elaborate puzzle, but it can be done more flexible than "find the key" or "find the right answer to the riddle" puzzles - these are just "right" or "wrong". The environmental challenges might allow players to stay there for a while, even without special equipment, but not very long. So there might be a choice - try to speed-run and hope you find something quickly, or try to play safe and assemble helpful equipment.
Could also be interesting to generate random "treasure maps" - parchments with notes and sketches - and the player tries to follow them to find big hidden treasures. Of course protected by traps and obstacles.
It's difficult to think outside the box. But I keep hoping that I can create something interesting.
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An idea from a former project was to have hostile environments (very cold/hot, bad air ...) and the player first must find or assemble equipment to survive there.
I like this idea. I like this idea very much.
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Smacking my head but I just can't think of the name of the Roguelike'ish game that is based largely on pacifism and such. Could swear it is in my bookmarks somewhere, very flowery language...would be well worth delving at if I could think of it...arrgh.
FOUND IT! The Minstrel's Song Perhaps not quite in line with your own visions, but worth a gander to see how some things pan out. Very....wrought...it would seem:
http://jonathanscorner.com/download/download.html
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I hate to be the one pissing on your party, but in my experience these things don't work for very long. Overused game mechanics are overused for a reason ;)
Would be a great *addition* to combat though.
-Ido.
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Yes, there is a big chance that it won't be very interesting. But I'm tired of all the fighting in games. If the idea doesn't work, then ... it doesn't :P
It's not a problem. Not as long as it was fun to work on it, and while I can learn something while working on it ;) That's the good side of hobby projects, there is no customer to please, but onself. I still hope I can make something that I can enjoy, and that some other people will enjoy too.
To be honest, most of my projects ended on some tech-demo level, and didn't become real games. I'm not a particularly skilled game designer, and I'll depend very much on help from other people with such.
@getter77
Thanks for the link! I'll check it out, once I have a little bit more of free time again, which might be not earlier than tomorrow evening ...
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To be honest, most of my projects ended on some tech-demo level, and didn't become real games.
That's a pretty common problem with me as well, it mostly stops being interesting once the programming heavy-lifting is done :)
Your past projects seem very interesting, and simutrans in particular looks very far along.
-Ido.
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Simutrans is quite a success. I guess it worked since it's been inspired by an older game that I enjoyed to play for many hours, and it was pretty clear how to enhance the existing game ideas. So, it was more a challenge for programming skills than design skills.
I must say though, that Simutrans wouldn't be what it is today if Prissi had not taken over in 2005. I had worked too long on the project, and needed a break. Prissi and some more developed Simutrans since, and made it the success that it is today.
Since a while I'm back and try to get a grip on game programming again. But on a much more relaxed level than before, and with a focus on smaller, easier projects.
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To be honest, most of my projects ended on some tech-demo level, and didn't become real games. I'm not a particularly skilled game designer, and I'll depend very much on help from other people with such.
Don't hide your light under a bushel: I still wonder how I managed to make my exams although I spent about 28 hours a day playing simutrans. That was 2003/4 and I liked it much more than Transport Tycoon.
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I'll chime in a bit late.
To me, that sounds like a very interesting proposal, and a very problematic one. If we look at video games as dopamine injection systems, you're going to need something to take the easy and overused place of violence.
I can think of two roguelikes that do something like that already, to varying extents. Legerdemain's combat system is cumbersome and punishing, but it's not the focus of the game. Mostly what you're trying to do is solve the mystery of your existence and unravel the riddles around you. This involves a lot of dialog options with manually-entered keywords, brutally twisted and turning labyrinths with hidden doors and secret passages, and an incredibly rich story. So in this case, the author has replaced the thrill of killing with the thrill of page-turning. It's very nice to find a hidden waterfall or discover a part of your character's past.
DF2, in another sense entirely, also does without combat. True, combat is mostly the focus what with the kids these days, but DF would be a complete game without any combat whatsoever. There, it's not so much the thrill of discovery or a richly woven plot that fills the gap, but a physical system that is so engaging that you've got enough to care about without having to care about killing the goblins.
However one would go about it, I think it's safe to say that the player needs something to care about, not just something to do. Basic spelunking/desert/space survival could be quite an enrapturing challenge. Or, were you a race of underground sprites who were trying to explore the mysterious world around them, them having enough charm, history, and/or personality could do the trick in aligning the player with them.
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Story based exploration can be very interesting. my only problem with that is that I never found out how to make randomized stories, thatz differ each time the game is played. And fixed story lines have the drawback that the game will become boring after a few replays, even if it is a branching story line.
A good background story can help immersion of the player quite a lot. Many people like to get into roles while playing and offering an attractive roile like the mentioned underground sprites will help for sure.
Dopamin is not needed for everyone to like an activity. Some people enjoy activities that are rather calm and might appear boring to others, like solving crossword puzzles.
I've got stuck with my plans though, and picked up another of my queued projects, to continue that one. In a while I should be back to this with fresh ideas.
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So are you going to make it so there are no enemies at all, or would you consider adding enemies that the player character is unable or unwilling to fight back against?
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I don't want to go into the horror game direction (enemies which you can't fight but which can kill you so that you must constantly avoid them).
I assume this will limit enemies to roadblocks, which are immobile and mostly passive, unless the player is very close - and in this case they are just more elaborate version of gates that must be opened.
I'm wondering if things like the "bejeweled" type of puzzles can be done with a first person view. I'm bad at thinking up new ideas, but maybe I'll have some success at mixing genres.
Shift colored walls to open new passages ;D
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Just a random thought that popped into my head, so you can decide if it would be a worthy idea or not, but...
What about a game where you don't fight any of the creatures in the dungeon, but instead you bribe them to leave! You collect gold and treasure that you can sell for gold, but when you encounter a creature, you have to guess how much it will cost for them to go away. If you are right (and have that much gold, of course), they leave and you get the exp. If you are wrong, they say if you are too high or too low and then that particular creature won't talk to you for another x turns. You can also have food as normal that you have to find or buy, so you can't just sit there and press the next turn button over and over.
Just a thought...
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That's an interesting idea. Bring some sausages to bribe the zephyr hounds, gold for the ghost of the king, cheese for all the rodents, wine and rations for the orcs. Then make a party alltogether ;D
More seriously, this could be an interesting sort of puzzle, particularly to find out what the different inhabitants of the place will like.
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How about that economy modelling? Actually it could be fun if the player character would have to search for job and go to work every morning. Then get paid and buy food to survive. There could be some gardening also, to grow plants and sell/eat them. Stealing could be very important in a game like that, but also dangerous.
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I once wanted to make a Sims clone, too, but it seemed too big for me. The ideas are nice, still. I think, though, the scope of my dreamed up "dungeon exploration game" idea is too small for these activities.
What could work here is item crafting - if there are things like sticks and rocks, it might be an idea to let the player build simple tools from those which are needed to solve some of the puzzles.
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That's an interesting idea. Bring some sausages to bribe the zephyr hounds, gold for the ghost of the king, cheese for all the rodents, wine and rations for the orcs. Then make a party alltogether ;D
More seriously, this could be an interesting sort of puzzle, particularly to find out what the different inhabitants of the place will like.
Yeah, that would be cool. And of course in roguelike fashion, it could be random each time you play.
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one thing I find fascinating is complex systems.
like a program I made it's a perpetual desert with wind blown sand dunes the only thing you could do was place walls that blocked sand, but it was still really fun to play with because the sand dunes formed beautiful patterns.
If you made destructible walls, flowing water and all kinds of interesting creatures to interact with each other, you could have a fascinating nonviolent roguelike. Even if the only thing you could do was build and remove walls.
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Have you read this thread (http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=74.msg763#msg763) (and the similar thread on rgrd that it refers to... and we get the infinite recursion since there is a mutual reference)?
My opinion is in there. I agree with Ido that combat is overused for a reason (nothing else that is so interesting has been found).
Speaking of peacefulness in games, I recommend Iji (a recent very good platformer), its approach to pacifism was IMHO very interesting and original.
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Speaking of peacefulness in games, I recommend Iji (a recent very good platformer), its approach to pacifism was IMHO very interesting and original.
I liked Iji (http://www.remar.se/daniel/iji.php), but I actually thought that its approach to nonviolence was one of its weakest traits. It's nice that the game reacts a bit differently if you don't kill anything, but ultimately the best method for pacifism is just to bunny hop past everything as fast as you can.
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I'm quite sure that one could have a different opinion, that's why I wrote IMHO :) Spoilers in black follow.
I liked the idea of tricking the player to play according to the standard RPG convention that enemies are things that you should kill (to gain XP, if you have no better reason), and then penalize them for doing that in several ways (fighting takes time, is boring, and you actually gain nothing - so pacifist play is much more pleasant; people will call you a killer instead of turning friendly). It shows how senseless war and violence are (which might be quite an obvious fact for you, but in game conventions it is usually otherwise). Also, from the game design point of view, it was interesting how really small modifications are enough to completely change the mood between playing in aggresive and pacifist styles. Sure, there are lots of details which are not done perfectly :)
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I agree with Ido that combat is overused for a reason (nothing else that is so interesting has been found).
I disagree. Personally I find combat boring, I was introduced to roguelikes through dwarf fortress and I don't blame them for not being exactly what I dream of. But there is the potential for a much more interesting game when the possible interactions between agents are not almost always adversarial.
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It needs more to stand on its own, I think, but perhaps something like this (http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=481.msg3984#msg3984) could be developed to the point where it could replace combat.
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My opinion is in there. I agree with Ido that combat is overused for a reason (nothing else that is so interesting has been found).
I just was reminded, that I once tried to research basic activities that might be interesting in games - I had forgotten where I potsed this, but google helped me to find it again:
Group 1 - Collecting:
- Collecting
- Farming
- Hunting (includes fishing)
Group 2 - Construction:
- Lair/Nest/Buildings
- Vehicles (waggon, ship ...)
- Altering the landscape (includes tunnels)
Group 3 - Crafting:
- Create items from resources and more basic items
Group 4 - Trading:
- Buy/Transport/Sell
- Shops
- Banking (-> Currency)
Group 5 - Politics:
- Forming a group/clan/faction
- Negotiate with other groups/clans/factions
- Fighting/War
The first 4 groups are mostly peaceful activities. I'd really be surprised if combat turns out to be the most ineresting, but I agree that it is the most thrilling, due to the usually "all or nothing" nature of cambat in game. Partiocularly roguelike games, where loosing a battle is the end of the game.
Now I must take better care not to forget or lose this again.
Also, thanks to all for your suggestions :) Unfortunately a bad cold has gotten me again, I feel unable to do some serious work, also I'm busy with another project, still a peaceful one, a trade and exploration based one, and mostly, a space/sci-fi based one.
edit: Ocne the fever allows me to think more straightforwwrd again, I'll still research all the links and suggestions. Just to say, the project isn't dead, just paused while I'm busy with another idea - I use to work this way, a few weeks on one idea, then a few weeks on another one. I'm trying to keep coming back ...
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Sneaking would be a great non-combat activity that can still cause some tension. You could even have a dungeon full of monsters and you need to sneak in to get some relic like Indiana Jones. It would be real cool to make an Indiana Jones inspired treasure hunter game with dungeons full of traps, puzzles, secrets, and enemies to sneak around. It could have a 'push your luck' type of mechanic making it a lot like Diamant, the board game.
Evasion is also a big part of this. Evading zombies during an apocalypse would make sense. A game like that would easily have the need for other non-combat activities like collecting and fort building, rescuing survivors, and then some aspects of diplomacy with that group. You could even have vehicles and trade with other safe houses. I suppose all those features together doesn't need to be zombies, it could just as well be an alien invasion, demonic uprising, or even a Red Dawn-esque military invasion.
Combat IS overused. I would love to see more non-combat activities in games.
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You could do survival-type stuff like the UnReal World does. Getting shelter against bad weather all that. Would hunting be too close to combat to use? Even if the animals had no chance against you in a fight and just tried to escape?
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I agree with Ido that combat is overused for a reason (nothing else that is so interesting has been found).
I disagree. Personally I find combat boring [...] But there is the potential for a much more interesting game when the possible interactions between agents are not almost always adversarial.
Combat IS overused. I would love to see more non-combat activities in games.
Sure, everyone speaks about potentials and loving to see more non-combat. I am not a bloodthirsty guy personally and would love to see an interesting non-combat game, too. But nobody* successfully uses these potentials!! And that's exactly what I meant by "nothing else that is so interesting has been found". Show me finished products, not potentials.
* Well, I see some good non-combat games (although they are not as good as roguelikes). But I want them to be shown (listed) anyway.
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Sure, everyone speaks about potentials and loving to see more non-combat. I am not a bloodthirsty guy personally and would love to see an interesting non-combat game, too. But nobody* successfully uses these potentials!! And that's exactly what I meant by "nothing else that is so interesting has been found". Show me finished products, not potentials.
I'm not a particularly good game designer, so I might be the wrong example here. But the idea of peaceful role playing games is stuck in my head since a long while. And despite all trying I could not pull off an interesting, peaceful RPG yet.
I agree with Z that it is very difficult. I also agree with those who see potential, I hope that some day I can realize this potential. But so far, at least in the genre of a dungeon based games, the idea of peaceful exploration didn't make the big breakthrough.
Even space exploration games use to have pirates, factions and battles - my try to make a combat free space exploration game which is only based on prespecting and trade will most likely be seen as boring, too, by a big number of people. Z is right, combat is an easy and very effective way to make games interesting.
I still want to try and see if I can pull off a peaceful exploration-based game some day. The space exploration idea seems to be beter suited than the dungeon exploration idea, but both appear tricky.
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You could do survival-type stuff like the UnReal World does. Getting shelter against bad weather all that. Would hunting be too close to combat to use? Even if the animals had no chance against you in a fight and just tried to escape?
I wouldn't call that combat. Especially if it's little critters like bunnies and stuff. :)
**You kill Thumper. Thumper meat added to inventory.**
Then you could get more out of it if you had a good cooking skill and stuff. UO had a good hunting and crafting system.
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My apologies if this thread is too old to revive, but I wanted to make some comments.
All games require an artificial conflict of some sort. Artificial in the sense that the players are not really hurt in any way by the conflict. As well, conflict does not imply traditional combat. It just happens that, as was stated, combat is the easiest form of conflict to implement in a digital game.
When thinking of peaceful games, you have a couple options:
1) Completely peaceful, as in no conflict what-so-ever
2) Non-violent, in the sense that conflict exists but there is no combat
3) Pacifist; there is conflict and combat in particular, but the player cannot partake in the combat
I'm not particularly sure how you would go about creating the first one, nor do I think it would create a very good game. A game without conflict would be closer to free play, where a player would just do whatever with the environment without any restriction or game-provided goals. The free play ideas work well in simulations, though there tends to be conflict of some sort (or a way in which you can lose the game).
The second one I think is what you should be aiming for. Conflict can be viewed as "some problem exists and it must be solved". Finding and performing the solution becomes the goal of the game, and you can chain these together. In order to solve the larger problem you must first solve smaller problems, which could create new problems when you go to implement them. Here, I would actually look at puzzle games and other simulations. Harvest Moon could be a good source of inspiration (It's a farm sim in case someone doesn't know what it is) and many of the ideas from that game could be expanded on. I liked how Rune Factory took the harvest moon engine and added combat, particularly with how combat and farming were linked and supported each other. (The crafting ideas they added felt tacked on and unfulfilling though.) Several of the building and environment-altering ideas from Dwarf Fortress could also be relevant. I would also look at the Eggerland series (Adventures of Lolo for the North American audience) as that shows how you could incorporate enemies but provide a way to get past them without really implementing combat.
The third situation would be tricky to implement in an enjoyable manner, as you have to give players something non-violent to do but also throw in combat and a way for them to escape it. Some players may find this restriction rather arbitrary, but it does work in a game where you can fight but are encouraged not to.
The groups you outlined Hajo are excellent places to start with. Focus on the scope of your game, and that will give you a good idea of the activities to incorporate.
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Mushroom farm in a complex of caves.
Each type of mushroom have preferred environment - humidity, temperature and illumination.
And there are small critters that want to eat some of your mushrooms.
But they can be fend off by other types of mushrooms or other plants.
Or probably by other critters. i.e. you can breed one type of critters
to protect mushrooms from other critters... And here goes epic battle! :)
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An improvement of the herb farming subgame from ADOM?
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Sounds a lot like a subterranean Harvest Moon, which was a really fun game. Could be really cool if done right.