Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Websites => Off-topic (Locked) => Topic started by: Krice on March 02, 2014, 01:19:22 PM
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The situation in Ukraine is a bit worrysome. The problem is not russians, they could invade Ukraine any day, I don't care. The problem is how EU and the snake in EU which is Nato, is going to react. We really should not do anything other than let russians kill each other.
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NATO won't do anything in this matter just like they didn't do anything when Russia was at war with Georgia. My guess is that there won't even be a war between Russia and Ukraine unless something unexpected will happen. Referendum is already scheduled, so Crimea will soon secede from Ukraine and become a Russian satellite state just like Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
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Let's hope nothing happens. Things can go bad fast when people want war.
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People don't want a war -- Putin does, he is a bored megalomaniac.
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Well, people keep choosing him in the elections.
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Well, people keep choosing him in the elections.
In the same way that Noxico was "chosen" as 2013 roguelike of the year? :-)
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Good point, but would it win if we were all forced to play it for the next year? ;D
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People don't want a war
They do. The actual problem in this is how "friends" of Ukraine react. You know, every time someone is attacked there are "friends" who get upset. For the same reason we had world wars in the first place and other big wars, because you have to help friends. It's ridiculous but always been the way wars have spread.
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We really should not do anything other than let russians kill each other.
"We should let %nationality% people die" is not funny at all. Substitute yours in that placeholder, hm?
People don't want a war -- Putin does, he is a bored megalomaniac.
As a Russia resident I can say Putin is one cunning and calculative bastard (KGB past must help a lot). He always stops just before the situation goes to the extreme and always leaves some visibility of freedom, not that it helps people much though. I'm fairly sure he won't let anything major happen, in only just to ensure his safety.
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He is now checking how far he can go. If I'm correct there is a treaty from 1994 where the USA acknowledges the borders of Ukraine. If there is no strong reaction then he will separate eastern Ukraine and set up a dummy government there.
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"We should let %nationality% people die" is not funny at all.
I think it is, because some countries want war more than others. Russia, Somalia and other underdeveloped countries. Let them kill each other rather than hurt civilized world with whatever they do. We should know better and be wiser than them.
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because some countries want war more than others. Russia, Somalia and other underdeveloped countries.
Believe me, the country which took full onslaught of both World Wars despite having no real desire in participating in them is unlikely to want a war. Even Somalia is just lawless, so more like simple wild nature than a dedicated crowd of fanatics.
Let them kill each other rather than hurt civilized world with whatever they do. We should know better and be wiser than them.
Which is a form of self-satisfaction based on fairly simple demagogy method: substituting "I am better than the worst people of %nation%" to "I am better than people of %nation%". Sorry to disappoint but this works only until you are dragged into some shit without asking your subjective opinion about yours neighbourhood developmentness (which is, as it turns out, is totally irrelevant).
On another note, because people may be unaware of actual state of Russia and other slavic nations around: self-identification-wise Ukraine is half russians (and Crimea is even more so). There are tons of people with family ties. But the other half consider themselves european and the fact that they live within one border always was a cause for some tension -- people of seemingly one country are actually two different nations and want to live differenly. So (at least for now) there is no any "intervention" from Russia, we just trying to keep our own people safe in case of still possible civil war.
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"We should let %nationality% people die" is not funny at all.
I think it is, because some countries want war more than others. Russia, Somalia and other underdeveloped countries. Let them kill each other rather than hurt civilized world with whatever they do. We should know better and be wiser than them.
Dude, why don't you cite relevant (http://i.imgur.com/iBl58dk.png) scientific (http://mexmigration.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-history-of-scientific-racism.html) research (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism) on the topic?
(http://i.imgur.com/gxHjYc6.jpg)
Now, your view point is much better supported by actual facts.
Seriously, take your head out of the sand.
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On another note, because people may be unaware of actual state of Russia and other slavic nations around: self-identification-wise Ukraine is half russians (and Crimea is even more so). There are tons of people with family ties. But the other half consider themselves european and the fact that they live within one border always was a cause for some tension
Well didn't russians once invade these independent countries? They created this situation. We have good examples that you can invade a country, but you can't destroy the dream of freedom.
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Now, your view point is much better supported by actual facts.
I think you haven't heard the latest news. Scientists now know what europeans have 1-4% neanderthal genes. It can be argued if neanderthals were more intelligent, but there is a genetic difference between europeans and rest of the world. So it's funny if racism actually does have a scientific proof and the biological differences are big enough to explain the difference between developed and underdeveloped areas of the world.
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So (at least for now) there is no any "intervention" from Russia, we just trying to keep our own people safe in case of still possible civil war.
Yep, so why don't Poland now invade western Ukraine to keep our minority safe from the still possible civil war, and Romania and Hungary will invade the south-western Ukraine to keep their minorities safe from the still possible civil war.
Btw, Crimea has just lost a few years worth of income from tourism, I bet the now safe people there will be ever grateful for that.
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Scientists now know what europeans have 1-4% neanderthal genes.
Actually all people except africans have neanderthal admixture. Europeans' amount of neanderthal genes is probably closer to 4% thanks to sharing a habitat with them for a longer time, while proto-asians just travelled east.
Yep, so why don't Poland now invade western Ukraine to keep our minority safe from the still possible civil war, and Romania and Hungary will invade the south-western Ukraine to keep their minorities safe from the still possible civil war.
Technically there's no invasion yet, as Russia and Ukraine have a pact which allows certain amount of russian troops to station in Crimea. As far as I know that quota hasn't been exceeded.
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The pact allows them to station, and not take over airports, military installations, block roads, etc.
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My point is that nobody is able to prove that it's russian military doing all these things, even though everyone knows it's them. Putin is going to insist that these people are members of crimean self-defence.
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Yep, so why don't Poland now invade western Ukraine to keep our minority safe from the still possible civil war ...
Safe from who? There are mobs going out screaming "if you are true ukrainian you have to kill russian in you!" while waving fascist flags. The most extreme ones trying to threaten to "purge Crimea of russian filth". They go in crowds with weapons and generally look ready to riot. And the Ukrainian military is mostly disfunctional.
Things got to the point that Crimea is claiming independence from Ukraine. Almost all of their military forces have sworn loyality to the "people of Crimea", not the Ukrainian government. Neither to the Russian, obviously, since that would likely freaked the world out =)
I highly doubt all of that was orchestrated by EU but currently pro-European part presents far greater danger to the Ukraine as a country.
The pact allows them to station, and not take over airports, military installations, block roads, etc.
For now, nothing like that happened and lets hope nothing will. The "massive invasion" for the most part was actually a long scheduled military excercises. The main force has already been recalled. The lesser part is pure strategy. As you said, the pact allows to station some troops. Given the unstable situation, Russia just stenghtened those troops to be prepared for the worst situation.
Technically there's no invasion yet, as Russia and Ukraine have a pact which allows certain amount of russian troops to station in Crimea.
Actually, there is more. The still legitimate president of Ukraine, Yanukovich, himself officially asked for assistance in restoring the law and order. Personally I'm not very fond of this idea as it can easily get out of hand. Thankfully our goverment decided to wait and see how the things turn out. And given Yanukovich general incompetence I doubt he and his request will remain legitimate for long as there is a referendum scheduled to 30th of March.
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As I understand this video shows Ukrainian troops marching to an airport that was overtaken by Russians a few days ago. Correct me if I'm wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE
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This video shows how Crimean self-defence tries to keep control of their airport base. The base was taken under control by order from deputy prime minister of Crimean Autonomy (Rustam Temirgaliev). By now Ukrainian people are allowed to the base.
At 0:55 you can hear Ukrainian "soldier" screaming "America with us!" (wut, really?). And just before, "ha, shoot, shoot, we're on TV". As far as I can see this was a fairly clumsy provocation. After several warning shots and a lot of talking those 50 or so Ukrainians were allowed on the base. The way situation unfolded indicated quite clearly that was a minor internal confusion. Too bad we'll likely to see a lot of similar situations, all the while Russian, Crimean and Ukrainian forces looking almost indistinguishable.
By the way, that only concerned military structures. As far as I can see (wow there is so much propaganda from both sides =_= and unfortunately I do not know anyone from there to ask) civilian airport is functioning as usual.
I find relatively funny how this one was blown out of proportion. Think what USA troops would do if some random people tried to show off and provoke right at the military base entrance, whether it was taken over legally or not.
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Yes, in that video, Ukranian troops are marching to their airbase. Russian soldiers took over the base, and don't let them in. The Russian soldiers all have their isignia removed, but the uniform is distinctively Russian, there is no doubt about that. Russian media present them as "Crimea self defense forces".
At 0:55, one ukrainian shouts "US with us! the world is with us!" They also say that they did not bring any weapons and want to talk.
How I see the situation:
There are many reasonable people in Russia who see that this is not right (1 (http://www.vedomosti.ru/opinion/news/23467291/andrej-zubov-eto-uzhe-bylo), 2 (https://www.facebook.com/vashurkov/posts/270106933156683), 3 (http://www.echo.msk.ru/blog/kiselev/1270990-echo/), 4 (http://ivand.livejournal.com/1766532.html), use google translate to translate into your language). They inderstand that Ukraine is an independent country, understand that people of Russia will only get troubles from all this. For example, in the past, there was a discussion between EU and Russia to cancel visas with Europe for Russians - forget about it. Russia was a respectable political power, and a member of G8 - forget about it.
But, what is funny, Putin's electorate doesn't want to travel to Europe, so they don't care about EU visas, they are pretty simple and gullible people - they can be manipulated into thinking that this incident in Crimea is a demonstration of Putin's and Russia's power. When for the the rest of the world, this is a sign that you cannot deal with Russia, that Russian politicians are irresponsible idiots. Many Ukrainians will hate Russians, not only Putin, they will hate all Russians. Many people in the world will hate us as a nation because of this BS. Why do we do this?!.. Because someone in Kremlin could not install Civ V on his computer? All this can make a long-lasting negative effect on the economics of the country, and its international image. This is just stupid, this is just wrong.
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I find relatively funny how this one was blown out of proportion. Think what USA troops would do if some random people tried to show off and provoke right at the military base entrance, whether it was taken over legally or not.
This happened to a friend of mine in Australia. There is a US base in the middle of Australia, it tracks satellites and such. Anyway a bunch of peacenik protesters drove way out there in a bus, stopped at the gate, and came running on to the base.
If that happened in many places the Americans would just open fire and be done with it, but each situation is different.
In the US civilian protesters on the street are treated a bit more harshly than this, pepper sprayed and beaten, sometimes shot. It's all nutty.
I stay out of it. I stay out of politics completely anymore. I'd not have known of this issue but for this forum.
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This video shows how Crimean self-defence tries to keep control of their airport base.
LOL, you mean the 15 thousand heavily armed soldiers in unmarked uniforms that appeared overnight in Crimea? ;D
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So is Ukraine part of Russia or not? I really wonder why Russia had to keep countries Soviet invaded back then. I mean they got some land already! Most of Russia is empty wilderness I guess.
By the way, some clowns have already started talking that Russia could invade Finland using that same reason now when there are russian land owners in Finland. They would "protect" russians from us. I'm really laughing to that idea. If they want this country they can have it. It can't be worse than what it is now. I guess oligarchy is a nice form of government. Democracy is so inefficient at times. And on top of that I welcome more (those beautiful) russian women to Finland. I could have one any day!
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Ukraine is a bit closer to Russia than someone might think. There is neither visa nor usual international passport required and customs are nearly nonexistant. For some people it way easier to come to east Ukraine or Crimea (e. g. for vacation) than to distant regions of Russia. By the way, the area of current Ukraine is practically the motherland of Russian nation (see Kievan Rus' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27)), all that Syberia came far later.
And the excess of land does not help, the infrastructure outside of big cities is paper-thin Т_Т.
About Finland I can only wonder where that came from. It is nice and, as far as my expirience goes, very hospitable country, but at the same time is is unmistakenly foreign country. It's a completely different situation from brother nation of Ukraine. Thus nope, Krice, no russain women to you.
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no russain women to you.
I want a russian woman.