Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Websites => Off-topic (Locked) => Topic started by: guest509 on October 27, 2012, 03:06:38 AM
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During the last run of the 7DRL I was pumped coding again. I'm not that great at it, so it seems, but I was having fun.
Recently I put another game into the pipe, GUNFIST. A simple shooter with roguelike levels and dumb robot enemies. It should be easy to do, I've done similar things in the past. I just can't find the motivation. I just hit a brick wall with bugs and weak animations and what not. I get discouraged, disgusted even.
It's just not fun. Ruins the whole experience. You end up with these talkie projects. Great ideas, totally doable, but will never see the light of day.
So it's back to table top games for me. Those I can do. I've been working on my spriting too!
EDIT: I really applaud those that stick to programming. Very disciplined.
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I have similar feelings. Now more when I go to work (not unemployed at the moment). I have three projects, each of them hard (well, Kaduria is the hardest one). Slow progress is making me mad, but I think my position is still better than yours, because I do get something done even it's slow.
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Yeah. It's frustrating to get nowhere. I make games for fun, after all, so if it's not fun then I feel justified in quitting. Especially when I can spend my energy making tabletop games and scratch my creative itch just fine.
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That's how most of my projects end. I get to the point of feeling ehhhh whenever I work x game. After a few months of working on my first roguelike it became painful to even think about it. Whenever I reach that point in development, I try to wrap up the game as quickly as I can.
I find it amazing how some people can work on their projects for years without going insane.
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Don't worry too much about it. Not every project was meant to be "finished" - some stuff sounds good on paper but if you can't bring yourself to work on it maybe it's not meant to be.
I used to beat myself up for not "finishing" (i.e. working post-7drl week) my 7drls, but I've learned to accept it & to be happy I managed to create something interesting in a week, and keep it at that.
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I guess thats how I feel as well, in the end.
I posted on this just a couple of days ago, then I listened to the Dwarf Fortress RLR episode and guess what. I'm back at it. Different project, of course. :-)
So it goes.
-JO
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I need something new.
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I find it amazing how some people can work on their projects for years without going insane.
It requires a ton of far-sighted design and a ton of motivation. And if the design is bad (or the language is C :P), even more motivation.
And even then, there's always the lure of a complete system rewrite from scratch. It's a ton of work, but it promises to make coding fun again. I'm at that point ATM. I've learned a lot from my current project, and while my old code is horrible, I'm motivated by the thought of soon having a far better architecture.
Andrew wrote a little article about roguedev burnout (http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.de/2009/06/day-in-life-of-roguelike-developer.html) a while ago. I'm sure most of you have read it but I've linked it anyway because it is so very true.
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It's really easy to get burned out with roguelike project, because they tend to be rather big and complex. Just thinking about all the work ahead can give you a headache.
I'm coping with this by not thinking about all the work that I have to do :) And by trying to get working game as fast as possible. If I were to start writing a new game, I probably would start from the end boss, walking and fighting. I would be working sort of backward order of what player is going to experience. The game would be playable sooner and it would be easier to stay motivated.
Seeing constant progress and getting steady feedback helps with big projects like these games.
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Right now I'm working on 4-5 projects, but only one of them is a complex roguelike game. I don't think it is possible for one person to finish more than one roguelike project (not counting 7drls and other crap like that). In my case this is quite simple. When I get bored with my roguelike, I temporarily move to another smaller project and then after some time I'm really happy to return to the roguelike, so it's not dangerous for me to have those smaller projects. It's hard for me to imagine myself working on two or more huge projects.
So here is my advice. Choose one RL and work on it until you know you really love that project. Don't start a new project up to that point. Don't throw away the old code to start again from scratch (doesn't work!). Don't listen to the little devil in your head that keeps saying "Man, this project is so shitty." Don't go for 7drls (a waste of time). And remember that if you want to travel around the world, you should expect some deserts on your way ;).
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Don't go for 7drls (a waste of time). And remember that if you want to travel around the world, you should expect some deserts on your way ;).
If you want to cook meals for a hundred people, you should expect some orders for desserts. Take the occasional break for a 7drl. ;)
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Don't go for 7drls (a waste of time).
7DRLs (or small projects) can be helpful since they let you work on some problem in small scale. I know I learned some things when I was programming Teemu which would possibly have taken longer time to realize with only Kaduria as a roguelike project. Then again, maybe you already know these things well. Then it's a waste of time, because a real, possibly even major, roguelike is something you want to do.
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I find the trick with programming big projects is to do a little bit each day.
That probably comes across as a general-purpose 'keep at it, champ' platitude, but that's not quite what I mean: when you're writing a bit of code of any decent size being able to build and maintain a mental model of the way the program is working and the relationships between its different parts is vital. You need to be able to see the whole whirring mess of machinary in your mind's eye in order to understand the effects of tinkering or adding to it.
I tend to find with coding that once I've established at least a vague feel for the structure of the code my productivity shoots through the roof. But even if I leave it alone for as little as one day that mental map starts to break down and it can take sometimes several weeks of painfully slow picking at the code until I can fully rebuild it. So, even if I don't feel motivated to do any coding for a few days I try to at least open up the IDE and glance through the code of a class that I haven't touched in a while just to slow down the decay a bit.
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I find the trick with programming big projects is to do a little bit each day.
I don't know. It feels like you have to force yourself. One problem is that when you get older games somehow are not interesting anymore. So it's quite difficult to get excited about them. When you are young everything is more interesting and there is something to reach for. Or maybe I'm just depressed.
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I think when we were younger it was easier to latch on to one thing and get really obsessed with it. Burn out was never an issue back then.
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I don't know. It feels like you have to force yourself. One problem is that when you get older games somehow are not interesting anymore. So it's quite difficult to get excited about them. When you are young everything is more interesting and there is something to reach for. Or maybe I'm just depressed.
Yeah, I don't think forcing yourself is ideal, but the way I look at it is: it takes a lot less force to get myself to work on something that I last worked on yesterday than it does to force myself to work on something that I haven't looked at for a month.
I also actually find being a hollow, bitter and cynical old man to be an advantage in some ways - when I was a kid I could never finish anything because as soon as I got a tenth of the way through I would have some other (in my mind) brilliant idea and I would have to drop everything to start working on that instead.
Of course everybody is different and gets motivated in different ways, so there's every chance that I'm just a freakish anomaly with tentacles for arms.
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I think when we were younger it was easier to latch on to one thing and get really obsessed with it. Burn out was never an issue back then.
I agree Darren, I remember finding all the secret rooms in The Legend of Zelda. All of them. Pre-Internet. I had the entire thing mapped out on graph paper. Did the same thing with Metroid.
Nowadays it takes 60 seconds for my computer to start and I'm irked at the time wasted.
Another thing I think affects me is when I play other people's games, see how great they are, and am like "Well...might at well just play that one." This happened with Gunfist, there are just a ton of procedural shooters out there that are 10x better. So you are left with only the joy of creation, turns out it's not enough sometimes.
I find that with card games I can pump them out quicker and easier, lower risk of burn out, but the medium can be a bit limited. Solo play against the system is hard to make interesting, and in doing so you can sacrifice the face to face fun which tabletop games should really foster. You also cannot simply distribute via free download and expect many people to click and play. People have to actually print things out, so that's a barrier to sharing.
So then you think, "Oh, well I'll just take my card game idea into a computer game everyone can play," finding yourself right back where you started. Bogged down.
Also I really want to make a fully realized procedurally generated real time strategy world town/base building tower defense sim where, when you get enough money, you can outfit a hero to go shut down the dungeons that keep spawning monsters to attack your town/base. The hero controls as in a gauntlet-like hack and slash splatterfest. Multiplayer. Online. Invite your friends. Elf needs more residential zones.
You can't really do that in a card game, unless your idea of a good game includes hundreds of pieces, multiple boards and a 24 hour play time...wait...that would awesome...I should make that game...but not many people will print and play something that big...so maybe I'll program it...ENDLESS LOOP CRASH!!!!!! :D
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Yeah, I don't think forcing yourself is ideal, but the way I look at it is: it takes a lot less force to get myself to work on something that I last worked on yesterday than it does to force myself to work on something that I haven't looked at for a month.
I also actually find being a hollow, bitter and cynical old man to be an advantage in some ways - when I was a kid I could never finish anything because as soon as I got a tenth of the way through I would have some other (in my mind) brilliant idea and I would have to drop everything to start working on that instead.
While I'm hardly an expert on the topic, I think it might also have to do with how long someone has been developing. I'm 19 and I've been making games and modding things for around 5 years. The first three years or so were a big creative rush for me. I rarely stuck to an idea for more than a month. The past two years or so I've focused more on actual programming and really just my one project (@Star Wars).
Anyone who has perused my blog will know that @Star Wars went through quite a few iterations before becoming @Star Wars, but I think that's a little different than constantly hopping through ideas. Even when my game was simply "sneak", I had a lot of the same basic ideas and philosophy that I continue to utilize now. Beyond that, I would argue the generic fantasy genre that "sneak" started off in is a good place to flesh out some basic mechanics, get a feel for your systems, and what you might need going forward.
On the titular topic, I don't think I've gotten burnt out since I started "sneak". Occasionally a bug will make me take a break for a couple days. Sometimes I'll voluntarily take a break for a couple weeks. I don't really see that as burning out because, when I'm on those "vacations", I tend to be thinking of ways to improve and add-on to the existing game. Basically, if I go a week or two without looking at the source code, that doesn't necessarily mean I've stopped working.
Obviously what I do isn't going to work for everyone. Some people need to make a living or just simply want to satisfy a deadline. At this stage of my life, I don't necessarily need either of those things. So I've got quite a bit of freedom to take breaks and redesign major elements of my game.
As a parting piece, I will say that I tend to get a bit energized from compliments, criticisms, new follows - really any interaction with whatever community is forming near or around my game. Which is not to say that I need that social element to build the game, just that it gives me a bit of renewed energy. Just as a forum-relevant example, after I watched Game Hunter's review of my game, I got into a bit of a programming frenzy and now I'm chock full of plans for the future and ready to roll.
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I find criticism more motivating than praise, personally. Or direct requests for "change this, change that". Always a good kick up the arse to get back into the code.
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I find criticism more motivating than praise, personally. Or direct requests for "change this, change that". Always a good kick up the arse to get back into the code.
Agreed. While I would never turn down praise, (constructive) criticism is more useful to me. While I can't claim to speak for every solo designer out there, I think criticism is doubly useful for me because I'm working alone. For example, I stopped updating the help screens and such for a while because I don't need them. Criticism reminded me that more people than just myself have and will play my game, so I try to tread a little more carefully there and keep the manuals up-to-date.
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On the titular topic, I don't think I've gotten burnt out since I started "sneak". Occasionally a bug will make me take a break for a couple days.
I think it's extremely rare for people under 25 year to experience a real burn out or generic depression. I didn't know what burn out was when I was 20. You can kick ass all the time without getting tired.
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On the titular topic, I don't think I've gotten burnt out since I started "sneak". Occasionally a bug will make me take a break for a couple days.
I think it's extremely rare for people under 25 year to experience a real burn out or generic depression. I didn't know what burn out was when I was 20. You can kick ass all the time without getting tired.
Fair enough. Like I said, I can hardly claim to be an expert on the topic. That's just been my experience thus far. I'll give you an update in a few years! ;D
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On the titular topic, I don't think I've gotten burnt out since I started "sneak". Occasionally a bug will make me take a break for a couple days.
I think it's extremely rare for people under 25 year to experience a real burn out or generic depression. I didn't know what burn out was when I was 20. You can kick ass all the time without getting tired.
Except that 5%-10% of young people in Finland are or have been suffering for serious depression. 15% of boys and 25% of girls have had suicidal feelings. I find those numbers really high and wouldn't say it's rare.
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Except that 5%-10% of young people in Finland are or have been suffering for serious depression. 15% of boys and 25% of girls have had suicidal feelings. I find those numbers really high and wouldn't say it's rare.
I don't think one can suffer from depression having a good roguelike project to work on ;). If you can do something you really love to do, you don't fall into a real depression. Suicide is for losers who can't program. I mean, I have suicidal thought every once a week, but they're never serious. I guess it's because sometimes I don't have access to my code for more than an hour :).
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I could never commit suicide with my code in the state it's in! Just one more commit and then I can consider... ;)
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Suicide, depression...goddamn you morbid mofos! :-*
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Except that 5%-10% of young people in Finland are or have been suffering for serious depression. 15% of boys and 25% of girls have had suicidal feelings.
I think "depression" and even suicides are a strange trend in Finland among young people. I don't know what the heck is the problem, but it can't be anything real problems, because in this country you don't have to face real problems until you are adult and try to survive on your own. I think there are similar trouble with young people in many countries. One great example is Japan, like hikikomoris. I mean, someone needs to punch those hikikomoris on the face to wake them up.
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I think "depression" and even suicides are a strange trend in Finland among young people. I don't know what the heck is the problem, but it can't be anything real problems, because in this country you don't have to face real problems until you are adult and try to survive on your own.
Not understanding it doesn't mean that it is not there (otherwise the world would be really small and consist of simple things and simple people). Real depression and burn out are scary and sad things to witness, regardless if the one going through them is young or old.
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Hell I burnt out, but not mentally. My body just gave out under the stress of law practice. Minds and bodies can be fragile.
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My body just gave out under the stress of law practice.
Burn out is caused by stress and I think it's more physical than depression that usually has no rational explanation. On the other hand I think you need also motivation, something that drives you to do whatever you do. Without motivation it's easier to burn out.
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Agreed. Motivation...where art thou?
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Behind the sofa, I'd wager.
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I enjoy coding stuff. I know that when I get into "the zone" it's a very pleasent and relaxing experience. It should be easy to just code something for the sake of the experience but I can't do that. I just don't find the motivation to do coding for the sake of it.
So I'm always looking for the thing that set's my next coding-project apart from all the other zillions of projects/games that's been done before. But the resources I have to spend are limited. So how realistic is it to do something groundbreaking all the time? Not very, but I still need the illusion of 'meaning' to find motivation, what can I do?
I prefer to work on games because the world is full of potential players. Players can be really passionate about the games they play. The feedback you get, or just the statistics, give you the feeling that you did something significant. Statistics tell me that the last game I completed as a hobby project in a couple hundred hours spare-time was played about a hundred thousand hours by players all over the world. So other's wasted a lot more time on my product then I did creating it. I'm not even sure that's a good thing (karma wise) but it feels like my deeds are having an impact. I'm also working on games as a day-job. Some browsergame we did has 3 million players and I can't even start guessing how many million hours (man-lives?) I have helped wasting with the 'entertainment' we produce. But when I was younger it was easier to feel proud about that. Now I'd rather cure cancer or build a house or something...
So, why do I always gravitate towards the next hobby gamedev project like a moth to the light? I guess because I (sometimes) enjoy it and I'm rather good at it (coding) and I still haven't lost hope to do something really great (by whatever definition) some day if I don't stop trying. But as soon as the project turns into a disappointment in comparision with my initial ideas it get's hard to I stick to it and see it through. I don't see the point anymore and I just stop. That's why most projects end as just another folder on my harddrive that's never going to be opened again. Ever.
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I've found this inspirational in the past: http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game
:-)
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I've found this inspirational in the past: http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game
:-)
Bookmarked!