Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Announcements => Other Announcements => Topic started by: guest509 on February 28, 2012, 04:33:02 AM
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Seriously. I love the genre. Obviously. But man I just can't seem to take down any of the big games. I've been working on Brogue after giving up on Crawl. Nethack is just way out of my league. I plan on giving ToME4 a try at some point but I'm sure it's as hard as the rest. I haven't gotten past about level 15 in Brogue. Here's a rundown of games I've actually put effort into.
Powder: Level 7. Just once.
Nethack: Never past the Gnomish Mines.
Spelunky: Beat it! Glory!
Brogue: Level 15. Once. Found out my wand of kill a monster was actually just turning them invisible. Great.
Crawl (DCSS): My efforts are too shameful to repeat here.
Rogue: Level 16 before SPLAT!
Sil: A few levels. It's new.
ToME: Got my dwarf to town but haven't gone any further.
Prime is next on my list. It'll kill me soon for sure. I got pretty far in an old Hack build but I am only counting games I've played this century.
I think I just bounce around too much. I don't tend to stick with a game too long.
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Maybe you should just give up the belief that save scumming is evil. I did :).
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Maybe you should concentrate on some of the top 7DRLs of yesteryear? They're short and fun and often not too hard, and you'll at least feel the accomplishment of actually completing games.
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I did beat one of the 7DRL's last year. Can't remember which one. I found an artifact weapon right in the beginning and just walked through the rest of the game. I was unfulfilled.
I don't take it too badly though. Dying can be fun because I die in a new way each time. I figure once I've figured out all the ways to die I'll do a lot better.
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I'd recommend something like You Only Live Once, PrincessRL or DDRogue.
If you want to know all the ways to die, then this could help if playing ADOM:
http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/245-Ways-to-Die
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Crawl is all about minimizing your liability. If you see an orc, don't approach; wait until he notices you and draw him around a corner, away from any potential allies. Three staircases per level means three entry points. Basically, be as cowardly as you possibly can. That philosophy, a basic sense of proportion, and playing a Minotaur Zerker will take you to the orb eventually.
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I think I just bounce around too much. I don't tend to stick with a game too long.
And I'd guess this is likely the culprit behind your problems. Any game that doesn't show its entirety to you from the beginning is going to require some amount of experience before you understand "how to play". (Even games that do this will, although in theory they don't.) One of the more interesting nuances in roguelikes is content depth: that is, features that surprise the player long after they've learned the basics. For some of the more challenging roguelikes, there are really only two ways to get particularly skilled:
1. Read up on the game's literature (spoilers, manual, practical discussions)
2. Get a "feel" for the game by playing it a whole lot, in addition to writing down everything you probably won't remember but seems important
This is technically true of any game: I think it's emphasized in roguelikes because of the concept of permadeath, instilling a sense of "I can do better than that" as you go. Mix in the PCG and, what do you know, you'll have to adapt to every game's uniqueness. It's extremely different from twitch gameplay that comes from FPSs or action platformers, but it's also different from many-steps-ahead gameplay that comes from RTSs or TBSs: one might call it a hybrid of the two, making decisions on the fly while still keeping in mind that you'll have to be prepared for the end-game. It's the kind of things that only comes from intimate game knowledge, and it takes a lot of time and effort to get to that point.
Not that I've beaten any of the major roguelikes, either, but I've only played NetHack and ADOM so far, both of which I got decently far without significant spoilers.
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I hate reading so-called "spoilers". I think a game, like Nethack for instance should come with a basic manual that tells you the main things you need to know and lets the game supply the rest like a nintendo game manual for Final Fantasy for example.
Stuff like engraving Elbereth that you would have no way of knowing without reading spoilers is kind of lame in my opinion because what do spoilers do? They "spoil" the game, supposedly.
But to me it seems like a lot of so-called Nethack spoilers should actually be called "instructions".
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Somehow Nethack 'spoilers' do not spoil anything. They just make it playable.
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Nethack: Never past the Gnomish Mines.
Don't go there until you have good equipment (something like AC below zero). When gnomish stairs appears just continue elsewhere for couple of levels.
By the way, I'm also a bad player. I think it's because I'm not very tactical person. I can't read the situation for turns ahead so I get in trouble very easily.
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Nethack: Never past the Gnomish Mines.
Don't go there until you have good equipment (something like AC below zero). When gnomish stairs appears just continue elsewhere for couple of levels.
By the way, I'm also a bad player. I think it's because I'm not very tactical person. I can't read the situation for turns ahead so I get in trouble very easily.
I start throwing stuff...boots...maces...whatever I can spare. Sometimes it works.
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I hate reading so-called "spoilers". I think a game, like Nethack for instance should come with a basic manual that tells you the main things you need to know and lets the game supply the rest like a nintendo game manual for Final Fantasy for example.
Stuff like engraving Elbereth that you would have no way of knowing without reading spoilers is kind of lame in my opinion because what do spoilers do? They "spoil" the game, supposedly.
But to me it seems like a lot of so-called Nethack spoilers should actually be called "instructions".
In my opinion, any game that -needs- spoilers to be playable is seriously in need of either revision or full disclosure of said spoilers. Roguelikes included.
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I believe I am the worst. Out of goodness knows how many years, or decades, of my life, I have never beaten a single roguelike as far as I remember, not even coffee break roguelikes. In the end I play roguelikes because I enjoy them, and I play them how I want, regardless of whether I win or not.
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I'm happy to tell you that you're not the worst. You might be joint worst, looking at some of the replies already on the thread, and taking into account my own experiences too. Like you I've never won. In my favourite, DCSS, I never even collected a rune.
I certainly enjoy playing more since I accepted that save-scumming is perfectly acceptable to me, so long as I never pretend I don't. Engineering my own start vault with acres of powerful items and uniques is fun, too. I get to see more of the game occasionally, before the next release when I start trying to win by the rules all over again. (*see note)
Okay the _point_ of RLs is to be hard. But I think we'd be more inclusive if a game had an 'easy' setting for children and for -ahem- people like us. An easy setting that attached a hash to the various character dumps or victory files, so it was obvious if you'd used it.
(*note - I'm reluctant to admit these things, not because of the approbation, but because I don't want the OP's thread to get hijacked by a scumming argument. Please just accept I'm not commenting on the rights or wrongs - just an observation of what helps me enjoy games and may or may not help the OP. I won't comment on this further in this thread even if someone else does.)
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Ha! I feel no ownership over threads. Run with it man if you want. I've been known to hijack things myself.
I'm not even sure how save scumming works but I hear it can really help.
I always figured it was like in X-Com or Wesnoth where I save before every battle and restart if things go bad. Not sure how that ends up with tons of awesome items though.....is it like hacking the source? I've done that before with Spelunky to make it easier.
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Save scumming is backing up all the saved files so you can overwrite the files you're left with if you die. Just like a traditional game. Definitely un-roguelike.
To get loadsa good items, yes you hack the source. Easy in DCSS - just remove all start vaults apart from your own and fill it with goodies. The documentation provides help with this.
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Sometimes there are good reasons to save-scum things (e.g., practicing a particularly difficult part, just so you can get it right when playing through without trying), but it arguably devolves the gameplay experience such that you're playing a very different type of game. Over the years I've leaned away from save-scumming (even in games where it's totally accepted and expected), but it's more a result of my desire to be hardcore than anything else.
Not sure how that ends up with tons of awesome items though.....is it like hacking the source? I've done that before with Spelunky to make it easier.
The reason that save-scumming can lead to better circumstances and/or results has to do with the way that things are randomly generated. Here's a simple example: let us suppose that, when an enemy dies, a roll is made to determine what it drops. You can manipulate this by saving just before the killing blow, kill the enemy, and reload if it's not an item you want. This can be done repeatedly until you get a good item. There are plenty of other ways to deal with the various randomizations, but that's the general idea.
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I used to be a really bad player (well, apart from my years of Nethack), but then I
took a magic missile to the knee discovered ToME. IMO one of the most newb-friendly RLs. I don't feel like a particularly bad player nowadays, and on some days I even dare touch DCSS. :o
Sometimes there are good reasons to save-scum things (e.g., practicing a particularly difficult part, just so you can get it right when playing through without trying), but it arguably devolves the gameplay experience such that you're playing a very different type of game. Over the years I've leaned away from save-scumming (even in games where it's totally accepted and expected), but it's more a result of my desire to be hardcore than anything else.
One reason might be bugs. If I know I'm playing a bug-infested game, I tend to make backups of saves so I have something to go back to if it crashes. Who knows, I might even manage to isolate the problem.
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I tried jumping around from RL to RL, but then I figured if I just stayed on one (I chose Brogue), I could be really good and win. At first, I could barely get to level 10, then, with a few strategy adjustments, I made it to level 18. That's when I found out polymorphism does not transfer allied status. Polymorph-ed my Troll into a Golem. Poof, dead.
My deepest dive (and most recent) was mostly luck. Got 14 enchantment scrolls and beefed up my war-pike to +17, additional +4 because of excess strength. Breezed through until 17, had a few near deaths with revenants until I found a staff of firebolt, made it all the way to 21. Then I woke a tentacle horror, had to swim to safety, then got torched by a dragon. Ouch.
I guess the moral of my story is to just focus on one game, preferably a newbie friendly game, and try and learn all the little nuances the developer put in. For example, in Brogue, treasure rooms and scrolls of enchantment are the key to success. Never waste enchantments until you have a good weapon, use detect magic potions every other level, etc.
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You're not the worst. I have yet to get past level 7 on any roguelike. Doesn't stop me from occasionally trying, though. I usually wind up getting frustrated at the obscure interface and giving up after a few runs. The tiled games with decent documentation are slowly improving the genre for me though.
I'm finding DoomRL fun enough to keep trying.
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Im pretty terrible but that's okay. Journey, not destination, right?
Haven't beaten any, and doubt I will anytime soon, but the feeling when you find something you haven't seen before or reach an area you never got to before, is intoxicating. There really is nothing quite like it in computer gaming.