I Have To Be The Worst Roguelike Player

[guest509]

  Seriously. I love the genre. Obviously. But man I just can't seem to take down any of the big games. I've been working on Brogue after giving up on Crawl. Nethack is just way out of my league. I plan on giving ToME4 a try at some point but I'm sure it's as hard as the rest. I haven't gotten past about level 15 in Brogue. Here's a rundown of games I've actually put effort into.

Powder: Level 7. Just once.
Nethack: Never past the Gnomish Mines.
Spelunky: Beat it! Glory!
Brogue: Level 15. Once. Found out my wand of kill a monster was actually just turning them invisible. Great.
Crawl (DCSS): My efforts are too shameful to repeat here. 
Rogue: Level 16 before SPLAT!
Sil: A few levels. It's new.
ToME: Got my dwarf to town but haven't gone any further.

  Prime is next on my list. It'll kill me soon for sure. I got pretty far in an old Hack build but I am only counting games I've played this century.

  I think I just bounce around too much. I don't tend to stick with a game too long.

[TheCreator]

Maybe you should just give up the belief that save scumming is evil. I did .

[Darren Grey]

Maybe you should concentrate on some of the top 7DRLs of yesteryear? They're short and fun and often not too hard, and you'll at least feel the accomplishment of actually completing games.

[guest509]

  I did beat one of the 7DRL's last year. Can't remember which one. I found an artifact weapon right in the beginning and just walked through the rest of the game. I was unfulfilled.

  I don't take it too badly though. Dying can be fun because I die in a new way each time. I figure once I've figured out all the ways to die I'll do a lot better.

[Darren Grey]

I'd recommend something like You Only Live Once, PrincessRL or DDRogue.

If you want to know all the ways to die, then this could help if playing ADOM:

http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/245-Ways-to-Die

[jim]

Crawl is all about minimizing your liability. If you see an orc, don't approach; wait until he notices you and draw him around a corner, away from any potential allies. Three staircases per level means three entry points. Basically, be as cowardly as you possibly can. That philosophy, a basic sense of proportion, and playing a Minotaur Zerker will take you to the orb eventually.

[Game Hunter]

I think I just bounce around too much. I don't tend to stick with a game too long.

And I'd guess this is likely the culprit behind your problems. Any game that doesn't show its entirety to you from the beginning is going to require some amount of experience before you understand "how to play". (Even games that do this will, although in theory they don't.) One of the more interesting nuances in roguelikes is content depth: that is, features that surprise the player long after they've learned the basics. For some of the more challenging roguelikes, there are really only two ways to get particularly skilled:

1. Read up on the game's literature (spoilers, manual, practical discussions)
2. Get a "feel" for the game by playing it a whole lot, in addition to writing down everything you probably won't remember but seems important

This is technically true of any game: I think it's emphasized in roguelikes because of the concept of permadeath, instilling a sense of "I can do better than that" as you go. Mix in the PCG and, what do you know, you'll have to adapt to every game's uniqueness. It's extremely different from twitch gameplay that comes from FPSs or action platformers, but it's also different from many-steps-ahead gameplay that comes from RTSs or TBSs: one might call it a hybrid of the two, making decisions on the fly while still keeping in mind that you'll have to be prepared for the end-game. It's the kind of things that only comes from intimate game knowledge, and it takes a lot of time and effort to get to that point.

Not that I've beaten any of the major roguelikes, either, but I've only played NetHack and ADOM so far, both of which I got decently far without significant spoilers.

[NeedsFoodBadly]

I hate reading so-called "spoilers".  I think a game, like Nethack for instance should come with a basic manual that tells you the main things you need to know and lets the game supply the rest like a nintendo game manual for Final Fantasy for example.

Stuff like engraving Elbereth that you would have no way of knowing without reading spoilers is kind of lame in my opinion because what do spoilers do?  They "spoil" the game, supposedly. 

But to me it seems like a lot of so-called Nethack spoilers should actually be called "instructions".

[guest509]

  Somehow Nethack 'spoilers' do not spoil anything. They just make it playable.

[Krice]

Nethack: Never past the Gnomish Mines.

Don't go there until you have good equipment (something like AC below zero). When gnomish stairs appears just continue elsewhere for couple of levels.

By the way, I'm also a bad player. I think it's because I'm not very tactical person. I can't read the situation for turns ahead so I get in trouble very easily.

[NeedsFoodBadly]

Nethack: Never past the Gnomish Mines.

Don't go there until you have good equipment (something like AC below zero). When gnomish stairs appears just continue elsewhere for couple of levels.

By the way, I'm also a bad player. I think it's because I'm not very tactical person. I can't read the situation for turns ahead so I get in trouble very easily.

I start throwing stuff...boots...maces...whatever I can spare.  Sometimes it works.

[deepshock]

I hate reading so-called "spoilers".  I think a game, like Nethack for instance should come with a basic manual that tells you the main things you need to know and lets the game supply the rest like a nintendo game manual for Final Fantasy for example.

Stuff like engraving Elbereth that you would have no way of knowing without reading spoilers is kind of lame in my opinion because what do spoilers do?  They "spoil" the game, supposedly.  

But to me it seems like a lot of so-called Nethack spoilers should actually be called "instructions".

In my opinion, any game that -needs- spoilers to be playable is seriously in need of either revision or full disclosure of said spoilers. Roguelikes included.

[K.I.L.E.R]

I believe I am the worst. Out of goodness knows how many years, or decades, of my life, I have never beaten a single roguelike as far as I remember, not even coffee break roguelikes. In the end I play roguelikes because I enjoy them, and I play them how I want, regardless of whether I win or not.

[MarshP]

I'm happy to tell you that you're not the worst. You might be joint worst, looking at some of the replies already on the thread, and taking into account my own experiences too. Like you I've never won. In my favourite, DCSS, I never even collected a rune.

I certainly enjoy playing more since I accepted that save-scumming is perfectly acceptable to me, so long as I never pretend I don't. Engineering my own start vault with acres of powerful items and uniques is fun, too. I get to see more of the game occasionally, before the next release when I start trying to win by the rules all over again. (*see note)

Okay the _point_ of RLs is to be hard. But I think we'd be more inclusive if a game had an 'easy' setting for children and for -ahem- people like us. An easy setting that attached a hash to the various character dumps or victory files, so it was obvious if you'd used it.


(*note - I'm reluctant to admit these things, not because of the approbation, but because I don't want the OP's thread to get hijacked by a scumming argument. Please just accept I'm not commenting on the rights or wrongs - just an observation of what helps me enjoy games and may or may not help the OP. I won't comment on this further in this thread even if someone else does.)

[guest509]

  Ha! I feel no ownership over threads. Run with it man if you want. I've been known to hijack things myself.

  I'm not even sure how save scumming works but I hear it can really help.

  I always figured it was like in X-Com or Wesnoth where I save before every battle and restart if things go bad. Not sure how that ends up with tons of awesome items though.....is it like hacking the source? I've done that before with Spelunky to make it easier.