Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Game Discussion => Classic Roguelikes => Topic started by: Omnivorous on November 20, 2010, 07:29:04 PM
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I've played Legerdemain alot lately, and it's stunning..I don't understand why I haven't heard of it before! It seems to me like it should be respected like, and be considered as "one of the big boys".
I mean, in some ways it's more like a RPG, but c'mon. It IS ascii, and quests/information is obtained by typing stuff manually. I have to be honest though, I haven't played it more than perhaps.. 30-40 hours alltogether, and I'd only count 10-15 of those hours as efficent, I mean, before that I didn't know what the hell I was doing and I didn't know if I could "trust" the game enough to pour that much effort into..
Some untraditional things are the saving-system. I think that's okay. That makes it possible to play Legerdemain as if it was a "coffee-break" RL, when it isn't.
I just think it has an amazing depth to it, the characters you meet, the stories and by all means - the presentation, and the way it seems just as well-polished (if not more) than ADOM and DCSS.
Have you played Legerdemain? Do you consider it a "Major RL"? Why/Why not? :)
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It IS ascii, and quests/information is obtained by typing stuff manually.
That alone doesn't make it a roguelike. This game is out on the fringes of the roguelike definition, and therefore I don't consider it eligible to be a major roguelike, but you're right in that it is a great game and deserves attention.
EDIT: Fenrir sighs heavily. Last time I make such statements about games I haven't played much at all. Stupid me.
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I think it's not a roguelike game so it can't be a major one. Right?
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It is neither roguelike nor major enough to be a major roguelike.
I do not like it personally (like, they did not combine the best of RL and the best of adventure, but rather the worst). I also do not get a roguelike feeling when playing it. Roguelike is not about ASCII. A roguelike feeling is when you explore the world while taking risks with your character, and this does not work for Legerdemain (no permadeath and no random dungeons)...
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Well what exactly makes a roguelike? I mean, ofcourse if you use rogue as an example you have the basics: randomly generated dungeons (although Rogue have some pretty basic pre-defined borders), random monster generation, permadeath..I don't know what else you'd put on the list, but a roguelike don't have to incorperate all these things in order to be considered a roguelike.
Sure, Legerdemain IS an adventure game. Several roguelikes can be considered rpgs, or adventure games, even though they are a roguelike. Even though I was mostly trying to be funny with the ascii-remark, I want to say that ascii IS a red thread through the genre.
I agree with the remark about permadeath and randomly generated dungeons, I wish it could incorperate those elements somehow, but I have to say, since its gameplay revolves alot around talking and collecting pieces of a story, I suspect it'd be boring after afew characters if you had to start over each time (like ADOM has gotten for me).
Anyway I think it's an interesting debate, and I really love this game :)
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ADOM has a story, but it also has all elements of a roguelike, while Legerdemain des not. ADOM is a roguelike interleaved with short fragments of the story. If you start over each time, you need to do these fragments again, but this really takes almost no time, so it is not a problem (for me, maybe you are different). With a more complicated story like in Legerdemain, indeed, it would be probably a problem. It is a problem even now, because if you get killed in a dungeon, it is boring to try the same dungeon again. (And my character usually got killed, I don't know if it is a non-RL balance or it was just some error on my part.)
When I have been trying Legerdemain, I got to the pub, and then the overarching story was like "try to go somewhere, if you are not killed then return to the pub and go somewhere else, or the same place to hunt in this easy place again, if you are kiled (as you usually are) then awaken in the pub and try again or go look for an easier place". IMO that really loses the roguelike feeling.
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For me, Legerdemain excels in one major roguelike area: the prevalence of imagination amidst minimalism. The story is lovely, simply lovely, but the game requires that the player have two major areas of interest overlap: both a love of cerebral, psychedelic fantasy plot-work and the dungeon-crawler format. For me, this is a swing and a hit, but it's plain to see that this is not the case for everyone. Then again, I think enjoyment of roguelikes is predicated on a strange turn of mind, so it's really hard to gauge whether community acceptance of a roguelike (or roguelikelike) means squat...
For my part, I thought it was brilliant from the outset, but lost some of its luster toward the mid-game. I ranted to Nathan a bit during the beta stage about why the Boogadah were genius and Orcs were a terrible idea, but I think I might have been a lobbying group of one... as far as the actual game goes, I gave up around the area of the mole village / fairy castle because I didn't see where to go next, died every time I hit an insanity trap, and was losing track of all the plot threads. I still have the little poster map for registering, though :)
EDIT: I will definitely say here without any kind of apology that Legerdemain has more story than every other roguelike combined, easily. The only roguelike I've played that even comes *close* with quality of prose is actually Incursion (when you read info about the pantheon and races, you'll see what I mean), but Incursion is a distant, distant second in terms of setting and plot.
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I will definitely say here without any kind of apology that Legerdemain has more story than every other roguelike combined, easily.
That may well be because ROGUE ITSELF HAS NO STORY. This only lends weight to the argument that Legerdemain is not a roguelike. ASCII RPG sure, maybe a good one, but not a roguelike.
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Roguelikes could have a (strong) story, but it could affect replaying. You can already see that in games like ADOM where the first steps are always the same (maybe later also, I never went far in that game). You go into that damned small village and..
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I'm pretty sure we already ranted and raved about this with Chronophase, didn't we? Regardless, I'm fine conceding that it's not a Roguelike if it means that the discussions of the games being made (whether roguelike or roguelikelike) become more enjoyable and less fixated on whether or not the game's a roguelike.
http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=1371.msg9818#msg9818 (http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=1371.msg9818#msg9818)
Rogue itself may have very little explicit story (Get the Foo, Rodney!) but good roguelikes tell a story at least implicitly. They're stories about perseverance, a steady upward climb fraught with challenges, intrigue, battle, etc. I couldn't imagine playing these games if I only saw ascii characters in front of me. Quite the opposite: it's the use of minimalistic graphics that allows my imagination to flourish, and that's maybe #1 in what I like in a roguelike (which in turn is probably why I consider Legerdemain to be both a roguelike and good.)
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This game also has heretical schism potential...
But how the heck do I get out of the goddamned first maze? %D
Srsly, the idea of this game blew my mind right away, but I can't really assess the difficulty - first or second critter in sight kills me and that's all. Satori whispers could actually be useful, y'know.
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The only thing not Roguelikeish about Legerdemain is the lack of randomly generated levels. Everything else is there.
I think it's a fantastic game, probably my second favourite RL after ADOM. It will probably never be a major roguelike, because most roguelikes are plotless, mechanical affairs - and that's what most roguelike fans like.
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The main problem with Legerdemain is if you stop playing it for a while, you forget what you were doing and give up the game.
Since you cant play a quick random game, it does not have the roguelike appeal, although it looks and smells like a roguelike, I don't get the warm fuzzy roguelike feel.
That said, just because it is not a roguelike does not mean it is not an awesome game.
But how the heck do I get out of the goddamned first maze? %D
The first maze is a little bit tricky at first, but like a lot of roguelikes it becomes easy soon enough. I was first turned away by diagonal passages, I think It would be better without them in the first maze. But is has been to long since I played so I can give any tips.
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The only thing not Roguelikeish about Legerdemain is the lack of randomly generated levels. Everything else is there.
Except the permadeath. Randomness and permadeath are two defining qualities about the Roguelike genre. It is just an RPG without them.
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The only thing not Roguelikeish about Legerdemain is the lack of randomly generated levels. Everything else is there.
Except the permadeath. Randomness and permadeath are two defining qualities about the Roguelike genre. It is just an RPG without them.
No, those are your two defining qualities about the roguelike genre. Wasn't a concensus reached with this?
http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation
So going through the high value factors for Legerdemain...
Random environment generation
Partial (randomly placed items and monsters)
Permadeath
No, even though the fact that places to save are so few and so far away from the areas you're likely to die that it feels very close to it.
Turn-based
Yes
Grid-based
Yes
Non-Modal
Yes, even though the scale outside of towns seems to change, the game play is exactly the same.
Complexity
Yes.
Resource management
Yes
Hack 'n' Slash
Partial - the NPC interaction elements are very important but the vast majority of the living things you meet are monsters to be killed.
Exploration and discovery
No. Difficult decision, because the dungeons have the same layout every game, even if exploring them is very important.
So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.
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When I have been trying Legerdemain, I got to the pub, and then the overarching story was like "try to go somewhere, if you are not killed then return to the pub and go somewhere else, or the same place to hunt in this easy place again, if you are kiled (as you usually are) then awaken in the pub and try again or go look for an easier place". IMO that really loses the roguelike feeling.
If you replace "pub" with "character creation screen" it pretty much exactly describes a typical ADOM game for me:D
But yeah, the game would be even better if the dungeons were generated procedurally each time you load a save or something.
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So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.
Procedural content and permadeath are two of the most defining aspects of the genre. Everything else in the Berlin Interpretation appears heavily in plenty of other games, but random dungeons and permadeath are nigh unique to roguelikes (which is unfortunate reall - I think procedural generation in particular has a lot to offer other games). Legerdemain really is on the fringe of the genre, regardless of what ruleset a few guys in a room once made up.
Not that there's anything wrong with that of course. It's a great game in its own right, and certainly draws some nice inspiration from roguelikes. I'd personally not hesitate to call it a roguelike-like myself, and I don't think it's any better or worse for whatever label is put on it.
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Yeah, IMO Legerdemain, Diablo, Spelunky, and Dwarf Fortress (fortress mode) are mixes of Roguelike and some other genre, not true roguelikes. I think that's a compromise that we should all agree on.
You could also call that roguelike-likes or semi-roguelikes (which would also include Desktop Dungeons, Decker, and Triangle Wizard, which I have not included in the previous list because I see no second genre mixed in, but still they are not roguelikes, as the tactics are completely different).
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So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.
The Berlin Interpretation lists your defining qualities about the Roguelike genre. You accept that definition without offering any reason that it should be accepted instead of mine. It is on the Wiki, so it must be true!
I would also speculate that you are not in any way qualified to be a spokesperson for "most players".
Also, how many "like"s are you willing to slap on stuff just to keep the word "rogue"? I do not get it. This genre does not make games in any way more legitimate.
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So that's 6/9. If you can't concede that LegerDeMain is *at least* a Roguelike-like, then you're engaging in some kind of weird restrictive purism that doesn't interest me or most players.
The Berlin Interpretation lists your defining qualities about the Roguelike genre. You accept that definition without offering any reason that it should be accepted instead of mine. It is on the Wiki, so it must be true!
You are one weirdo on the internet with a definition of roguelike. As I understand it, the Berlin Interpretation was an IRL meeting of several weirdoes on the internet reaching a comprehensive consensus on a definition of a roguelike. True, it's not exactly a stone tablet handed down from the Gods. But it is a well written, clear, consensus based definition, and it definitely trumps one persons definition of a couple of lines in a forum discussion.
And no it's not mine. I had no part in it, and I disagree with bits of it.
Also, how many "like"s are you willing to slap on stuff just to keep the word "rogue"? I do not get it. This genre does not make games in any way more legitimate.
I don't think excluding games like LDM or any other game that isn't a textbook roguelike, from discussions about roguelikes, is of any purpose at all.
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You are one weirdo on the internet with a definition of roguelike. As I understand it, the Berlin Interpretation was an IRL meeting of several weirdoes on the internet reaching a comprehensive consensus on a definition of a roguelike. True, it's not exactly a stone tablet handed down from the Gods. But it is a well written, clear, consensus based definition, and it definitely trumps one persons definition of a couple of lines in a forum discussion.
That is absolutely ridiculous. Why does the quantity of people involved with its conception make it more valid? Why does the number of lines of text involved make it more valid? Why does the fact that it was "IRL" make it more real? Well, you said it was "an IRL meeting [...] on the Internet", so, unless you are implying that this part of the Internet is not real life or something, I have no idea what you mean, and I still wonder how any of it makes the Berlin Interpretation more valid. This is so flatly absurd that I can only presume that you are joking.
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Now you're just being obtuse. I've said all I have to say anyway - I'll let you get the last word in.
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I think it would be interesting to see if the people behind the Berlin Interpretation accept Legerdemain as a roguelike. It is quite possible that they would not accept it even if it works in 6/9 points. Maybe the points missed are the important ones, or maybe just the intangible roguelike spirit, which cannot be described by simple rules, has disappeared when mixed with interactive fiction.
Such things are not so easily classifiable. Technically, Decker and Desktop Dungeons seem to have all tactical features listed in the Berlin Interpretation. However, they are tactically completely different from roguelikes, and for that reason I don't consider them roguelikes. They just satisfy the letter, not the spirit.
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I think it would be interesting to see if the people behind the Berlin Interpretation accept Legerdemain as a roguelike. It is quite possible that they would not accept it even if it works in 6/9 points. Maybe the points missed are the important ones, or maybe just the intangible roguelike spirit, which cannot be described by simple rules, has disappeared when mixed with interactive fiction.
As one of the people present at the time, I want to say that there are some points people seem to overlook:
1. "Roguelike" is a spectrum, not a boolean attribute. A game can be more or less roguelike, and I would personally say LDM is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum between "canon" (angband, crawl, nethack, rogue) and not-roguelike (pacman, farmville, starcraft).
2. The reason behind the Berlin Definition is "for the roguelike community to better understand what the community is studying". It's not to create an exclusive club of pure-breed roguelikes, separated from the plebes and mongrels on the other side.
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"Indie Press Revolution has recently picked up our CRPG Legerdemain as one of its newest titles. They are a game distributor specializing in independently produced, creator-owned pen-and-paper roleplaying systems. This could open up roguelike-style games to a whole new market, so we are very excited about that." -From http://roguelikefiction.com
I suppose that's a good way to put it; "roguelike-style games" :-)
To be honest, when I found the game and I wrote this post, I had played it quite a bit and I hadn't really thought about the fact that dungeons weren't procedurally generated. (Since it isn't, there's really no reason to wander about the same dungeons over and over again anyway.) And I felt abit dissapointed when I started consciously thinking about the fact and soon after stopped playing it.
I don't agree with the people claiming Legerdemain is "just a rpg dressed up as a roguelike" because even though permadeath and random dungeon-creation is important and usual attributes for a roguelike, it still has alot of the "RL-feel" to it - perhaps because of the things TSMI is listing.
Legerdemain also have alot of (positive) attributes that -no other- roguelike has, which makes me (as a RL-enthusiast) want to embrace it as a well-polished, interesting, original roguelike! :-)
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Maybe we should start labelling games as hardcore and softcore roguelikes? ;)
My own titles would likely be on the softer side, lacking the complexity of the major RLs and deviating away from traditional attacking mechanics. I think most people find the differences interesting rather than complain about them being non-roguelike.
2. The reason behind the Berlin Definition is "for the roguelike community to better understand what the community is studying". It's not to create an exclusive club of pure-breed roguelikes, separated from the plebes and mongrels on the other side.
A very good point. Also it's generally called the "Berlin Interpretation" rather than "Definition", for precisely the reason that it's not out to categorise games, but to interpret the genre. Alas that it is so often misused.
It is fun to try to break the Interpretation though, and to try and explore the limits of the genre. With Unstoppable I set out to include a lot of roguelikes tropes but in barely recognisable ways (like the on-the-fly level generation by constructor bots). Rules exist to be broken, after all ;) I think we'll find that as more games are made with roguelike elements our traditional definition of the genre will change dramatically.
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How the fork do you survive the first dungeon!? Even better, how in holy hell do you get out of it?!!?
Sheesh, the game looks awesome, but the second thing that sneezes in my direction kills me.
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If it's a 2D, grid-based, turn-based RPG than it's a roguelike. End of issue.
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If it's a 2D, grid-based, turn-based RPG than it's a roguelike. End of issue.
Except that roguelikes are not RPGs...And there are other important factors such as procedural generation and perma-death ;)
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And there are a lot of 2D grid-based turn-based games out there which aren't roguelikes. Heck, Civilisation even features procedural generation and a hardcore permadeath feature!
I suppose ultimately the rogue is in the player ;)
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Except that roguelikes are not RPGs
...How? Roguelikes are a subset of RPGs. All the defining aspects of an RPG -- Control of a single or a small group of characters, combat focus, and so on, are all there in the major roguelikes of today, thus, I think we can safely add them to the list.
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Except that roguelikes are not RPGs
...How? Roguelikes are a subset of RPGs. All the defining aspects of an RPG -- Control of a single or a small group of characters, combat focus
So Doom is an RPG then?
, and so on
These not the defining characteristics of an RPG for me, rather it's: a story line (preferably non-linear), meaningful dialog with NPCs and c&c (choices and consequences). None of these are characteristic of roguelike or so-called "Action-RPGs" like diablo.
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The definition of a (computer) RPG known to me was something about having character(s) who has some stats like strength or HP, and they improve these stats (and equipment) during the course of game. If somebody says that Warcraft III or Heroes of Might and Magic has RPG elements, then probably it means something like this. Makes no sense either.
I think computer RPG is a stupid genre. Roguelikes (and other "RPG" games with strong emphasis on tactics) are in fact strategy games, and "RPGs" which are stories with some useless fights interleaved are stupid (would be better without these fights).
A proper role playing is IMO currently only possible with a human game master (or some other human, but not with formal rules of a computer program).
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Would a roguelike without any character advancement or story be an RPG? Would it still be a roguelike...?
Anyway, this thread is starting to get a bit silly :)