Author Topic: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years  (Read 20708 times)

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« on: February 09, 2010, 11:32:22 AM »
I'm pretty sure I read every word of the original Moria docs and could never figure this out.

You know how in Moria/Angband the Armor is written like..

Metal Brigadine Armor (-3) [19,+0]

Okay the 19 is the number added to your AC.  The base protection so to speak.
The +0 is it's magic value.
What the world is the (-3)?

At first I thought it was a good thing, like a damage reduction per strike.  But after seeing the Rusty Chainmail (-3) I started thinking it was more of an encumberence thing.  However it doesn't seem to lower DEX, MOV, or anything else I've noticed on the Character Sheet.  100 tripe rations to the first person to solve this decades old question!

« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 01:06:49 PM by Yyrkoon »

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 01:06:14 PM »
Now that I think about it Moria/Angband does have a hidden encumberence that affects spellcasting and eventually movement.  Not the normal you've gone over your weight allowance encumberence, but the one that actually gives the message that you're over encumbered and your movements are slowed.  Probably has to do with that?  I'd still appreaciate if somebody familar with the code would explain exactly how it works.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 01:09:52 PM by Yyrkoon »

Etinarg

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
  • Karma: +1/-1
  • Idea archivist and game tinkerer.
    • View Profile
    • Gedankenweber Blog (German)
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 01:07:56 PM »
It could also be a -3 to stealth
But I don't know really.

getter77

  • Protector of the Temple
  • Global Moderator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4953
  • Karma: +3/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 01:09:13 PM »
http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=7387   I don't recall where exactly, but I'm pretty sure the answer pops up to this and more in this Let's Play Angband(with dabblings in other variants) thread.    Good read.
Brian Emre Jeffears
Aspiring Designer/Programmer/Composer
In Training

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 01:12:07 PM »
It could also be a -3 to stealth
But I don't know really.


Oh yeah, I never thought of that one.  Yeah possibly since there is a cloak of stealth with a (+value).

EDIT - Infact this seems like the perfect answer.  One problem though.  The Cloak of Stealth as well as Elvenkind Armor and everything else that effects stealth seems to point out that it is effected in the basic identify.  If the Cloak of --> STEALTH <-- actually comes right out and points out the +1 is effecting stealth, why wouldn't something less obvious like armor?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 08:05:33 PM by Yyrkoon »

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 07:20:10 PM »
I know it's a malus of some kind, but no, I don't know what it specifically does.

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 08:14:31 PM »
I know it's a malus of some kind, but no, I don't know what it specifically does.

I was 99% sure it wasn't a good thing too, and then I found a suit of extremely cool (-5) or (-10) armor.  I'm sorry to say I can't remember if it was an artifact or just an extreme exotic.  What I do remember was that every other intrinsic modifier was a positive.  Seemed odd to me that such a kick ass suit of armor would be soooooo whatever it is that number means...?

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 08:38:49 PM »
From here:

In general, the heavier the armour, the more protection it offers, but the use of rare, strong materials, or better craftsmanship, can make armour which is lighter and stronger than normal equivalents. Heavier body armour can also encumber the warer, giving a small penalty to the combat ability of the wearer; this is displayed in parentheses after the armour name, e.g.

Chain Mail (-2) [14, +0]

I couldn't find specifics on how the numbers calculate though.  Maybe that's just the same as a -2 to hit malus?

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 08:50:23 PM »
From here:

In general, the heavier the armour, the more protection it offers, but the use of rare, strong materials, or better craftsmanship, can make armour which is lighter and stronger than normal equivalents. Heavier body armour can also encumber the warer, giving a small penalty to the combat ability of the wearer; this is displayed in parentheses after the armour name, e.g.

Chain Mail (-2) [14, +0]

I couldn't find specifics on how the numbers calculate though.  Maybe that's just the same as a -2 to hit malus?

Wow!  Thank you very much Vanguard.  In the end it's something I would have never guessed.  Affects (to hit) combat.  Wow!  That suit of armor must have belonged to some legendary pacifist.

Again, Thank you.  Your Kibbles & Snouts are in the mail.

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 08:58:50 PM »
This means there are at least four seperate encumberence values being monitored in Moria/Angband at all times.

All Item Weight (which slowly lowers movement the heavier your load becomes)
Armor Specific Weight (that gives the "You are Slowed" message and also lowers magic)
Hand Coverage (which encumbers magic)
and now another Armor Specific Weight (that modifies combat)

I love it.  I guess thats why it's been the template for so many games.  Quite impressive.

Yyrkoon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 09:25:23 PM »
Of course this has me wondering if vanilla moria/angband have any suits of armor with a positive to hit bonus.

Something like the ever comfortable Spiked Plate Mail?  Or perhaps something made out of the scales of the Green Dragon.  Scratch that.  The poison would probably kill the player first.  Hey, great cursed magic item!  Poison Armor.  Green Dragon Scale armor that hasn't been cured properly.  Cursed so that it can't be removed, and poisons at the Ancient Green level as long as it's being worn.

corremn

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 700
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • SewerJack Extraordinaire
    • View Profile
    • Demise RogueLike Games
Re: Quick question thats been buggin me for 20 years
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 11:12:27 PM »
Cool armour idea. Poisons at the Ancient Green level? "You are fully healed. You were the armour. You die."

Ancient Green Dragons from Moria are death incarnate.  I remember them well...not fondly.  At least with the AMHD's there is a large chance that they will not breath poison on there first go.  Moria was a great example of having creatures that are easy enough to evade, but the reward for killing on is just to great.  I lost many creatures to these two dragon types.  Of course once you worked out column dancing and you were fast enough...  I really like the fact the Moria had no poison resist though. 

IIRC the -2 is a 'to hit' penalty.
corremn's Roguelikes. To admit defeat is to blaspheme against the Emperor.  Warhammer 40000 the Roguelike