Wesband

[Z]

Wow, good idea with Wesband, I am going to try it out now! But the name suggests that it is a Zangband variant based in the Wesnoth world (*band usually means an Angband variant), while in fact it is the other way around.  Maybe "Zangnoth" would be a better name. Or something else that does not lead to such an incorrect suggestion. I probably would not look into anything named "Wesband" because I hate Angband variants (unless I saw it in the list of Wesnoth add-ons, which would make the truth obvious).

[Fenrir]

I hate Angband variants (unless I saw it in the list of Wesnoth add-ons, which would make the truth obvious).

I hate Angband and it's ilk, but only because of the constant torch management (enter dark hallway --> turn on torch; enter lit room --> turn off torch). It's a shame, because I would like to give ToME a go.

[Slash]

I agree with Z... at first I thought it was an Angband variant, themed with battle for wesnoth, which I am very reluctant to look at (sorry, can't help it). I will give it a look later, although from the comments at the forums it seems to have usability issues?

[Z]

Seems like I started a thread But there were more previous posts in the original thread related to Wesband, and they have not been moved.

[Slash]

It is a split thead, born from the roots of Castlevaniarl!

[Z]

To split the thread even more:

I hate Angband because of its non-persistent dungeons and inventory size limited to only 23 stacks (or something). Both are very illogical. (I can carry 50 potions of the same type, but not 25 potions of different type?) Also non-persistant dungeon leads to boring gameplay of repeating the same level again and again.

DoomRL also has both of these properties,  but here they are reasonable. Dungeons are non-persistent only because you can only descend, and that's OK. Inventory is limited by number of items, but here it is done reasonably (e.g. the quantity of ammo you can carry in one slot depends on its type).

[Ken Oh]

Heh, OK. Thanks for splitting the topic. Sorry, I really didn't mean to derail.

I didn't come up with the name for Wesband. Dovolente, a Zangband enthusiast, gave it that name and we decided to collaborate on the project. While -band means Angband variant, Wes- is usually what goes with Wesnoth portmanteaus (Wesbowl, Wescamp, Wesball, Wesmere, WesCiv, etc.). But, thanks for the heads up about the name not being the best. That'll go into the 'to consider' pile.

I also don't consider myself an expert on Zangband. What stands out as different in it from some other roguelikes is the topside world and close attention to tactics. These are in Wesband (though the topside world is as-of-yet sparse). Wesband also used to have non-persistent dungeons, but, while they are somewhat of an annoyance in Zangband, they are a total friggin' nuisance for a multiplayer turn-based strat game. I really have to aim to make things as quick as feasible. A lighting system for vision can't really work in Wesnoth, due to core features (or limitations, you pick) of the game, so no real need to worry about that.

So, I'm not even sure if it should be Zangnoth even. You'll have to tell me what you think.

About playability...it should be playable. It's just really, really rough and has no endgame yet. The posts on the forums are just the people having problems. Translation is an issue that I can't really work around too much, and then there are always people who doing things wrong along (like manually downloading the content and putting it into the wrong folders).

What I wanted to polish things up before releasing it to the non-Wesnoth-initiated. Not that I don't like all the publicity I can get, it's just that Wesnoth players are more likely to have the kind of insights needed at this stage, plus I'm always hoping more WML coders will throw in with me (hint: WML isn't difficult, so anyone who wants to help has a place).

I did make a small press release for my friends which notes some Wesnoth paradigms that aren't obvious to an outsider: http://www.protozoic.com/2009/07/01/wesband/

I'm finishing up a grueling month of data-entry, with CastlevaniaRL being my current distraction. We're moving into a new phase of development where things will probably get more rough before they get better. However, when things start looking up, expect me to publicize as much as you'll let me.

[getter77]

I know I'll surely be looking forward to the future evolutions of the project.  Definitely keep all in the loop as you are ready to.   

[Z]

Name: maybe something like Wesrogue? If Zangband is not that important after all?

Gameplay: I have played it, reached level 20 something; very interesting things happen from time to time, but there is also quite a big amount of boring filler which make me feel wasting my time (seems playing DCSS, which is 100% fun, makes one picky:) and Wesnoth is also very good) not sure how to do about that, hopefully you will find a way to reduce waste and increase fun

You added the possibility to "go up to town" and "go down" after clearing the level, you should also add the option to "pick up all items" (possibly with a selection) - this will make the game quicker (no need to pick up gold if it is do be done automatically)

I don't know why I cannot get the Fire Crossbow Shot...

I once gave something to my Mage of Light and he got a 0-0 typeless attack (which I actually used - it could not be retaliated against, so I could use it to give my mage (and also the enemy) some minor experience) [note: it is not true that lawfulness is completely irrevelant]

Groups of enemies on level 1 (e.g. a group of 4 orcs) are too hard

Diablo is a multiplayer dungeon crawler, and I think it is OK

[dweller]

Project looks very interesting.
I'm casual Wesnoth player, so I've downloaded it.
It looks interesting even after start. Actually I'm pretty impressed how can Wesnoth be altered.

But:
- lot of empty space in dungeons which is boring to go throught.
- performance: gameplay is very slow. Computer turns take very long time.
- first monsters I have encountered, killed me almost on first turn, definitely on second.

If you correct these (I think that performance issue will be challenging), you have a new player of your game.

[Rya.Reisender]

Not exactly related, but did you receive my PM Ken Oh?

[Ken Oh]

Yes, Rya, I got your message. Sorry, I didn't get back to you yet. I was going to take the time to try it out before I said anything.

- lot of empty space in dungeons which is boring to go throught.
- performance: gameplay is very slow. Computer turns take very long time.
- first monsters I have encountered, killed me almost on first turn, definitely on second.

1. Yeah, we're going to eventually scale the size of the levels to the number of players. As it is, you're working with levels which are big enough to hold 3 players' worth of content.

2. This is actually one of the most important things I'm working on. The problem now is how far away enemies attack each other and move around. What is going to happen is that the AI won't start considering these unit until the players are right on top of them. That is going to change the length of AI turns, plus it will also let players explore longer without having to end turns and wait for the AI to come to them.

3. I think Wesband is one of the easiest roguelikes I've ever played, and others have dismissed the game for being too easy. If I'm finally getting some "too difficult" feedback, then I guess I'm doing something right. Now is the time to start inching things backward a bit. But, you're right, clusters can be a bit unfair. I have a lot of ideas for "fairness code" that are on the to-do list.

Name: maybe something like Wesrogue? If Zangband is not that important after all?

I don't know. Is it? Is is more like Rogue and less like Zangband? This is the kind of feedback I'd like to get.

Gameplay: I have played it, reached level 20 something; very interesting things happen from time to time, but there is also quite a big amount of boring filler

Yeah, well, it's just very incomplete, as I think I've said.

I don't know why I cannot get the Fire Crossbow Shot...

Are you a Chaotic Human or an Orc? Of course, this is the kind of documentation that needs to be somewhere....

I once gave something to my Mage of Light and he got a 0-0 typeless attack (which I actually used - it could not be retaliated against, so I could use it to give my mage (and also the enemy) some minor experience) [note: it is not true that lawfulness is completely irrevelant]

True, and that's a bug I've been trying to squash for half of a year now. Any details on this?

[Z]

Name: maybe something like Wesrogue? If Zangband is not that important after all?

I don't know. Is it? Is is more like Rogue and less like Zangband? This is the kind of feedback I'd like to get.

This name was supposed to refer to Rogue as in Roguelike, not Rogue itself. (Wesroguelike would be too long, WesnothRL is possible but I would interpret this name as something like "Wesnoth in Roguelike format", which is again the other way around --- but it is not as clear as for "Wesband".) It shares lots of properties with Roguelikes, and AFAICT the only thing that is typically Zangband-like is the town at the surface. (And even that feature is not reserved to Zangband variants, it was inherited from Angband, which in turn inherited it from Moria (I don't know why they call them Angband variants when they are actually Moria variants), and it also appears in Larn, Castle of the Winds, and probably other roguelikes which I either don't know or they have this to a lesser extent so I am not sure if to count).

I don't know why I cannot get the Fire Crossbow Shot...

Are you a Chaotic Human or an Orc? Of course, this is the kind of documentation that needs to be somewhere....

No, I just noticed that my crossbow has "allows Fire Shot" and I tried to get it somehow, I thought that gaining some skill in magic and fire magic would allow it, but it did not. Then I tried reading the source, but maybe I missed the chaotic requirement.

I once gave something to my Mage of Light and he got a 0-0 typeless attack (which I actually used - it could not be retaliated against, so I could use it to give my mage (and also the enemy) some minor experience) [note: it is not true that lawfulness is completely irrevelant]

True, and that's a bug I've been trying to squash for half of a year now. Any details on this?

[/quote]

No, I gave him some random junk that I did not require for anything, and later noticed he had that. No details. I could try to recover the stuff (only kill and possibly release work, right?) and see if I can reproduce it...

[Vanguard]

I hate Angband and it's ilk, but only because of the constant torch management (enter dark hallway --> turn on torch; enter lit room --> turn off torch). It's a shame, because I would like to give ToME a go.

I'm not a big fan of *bands either, but torch management isn't too bad.  Just leave them on; they're extremely cheap anyway.  Buying a lantern at the start of the game (also cheap) will make things more convenient, and the phial of Galadriel is a fairly common early game light source artifact that never goes out.  ToME also offers everburning torches and such that you don't have to worry about.

Of the Angband variants, I think ToME is the best one by far, with its strong character building choices, world map, and multiple, diverse dungeons.

[Ken Oh]

No, I gave him some random junk that I did not require for anything, and later noticed he had that. No details. I could try to recover the stuff (only kill and possibly release work, right?) and see if I can reproduce it...

Actually, don't worry about it if you don't know it right off the top of your head. The NPC code is getting nearly completely revamped. All NPCs (enemies, everything) will be constructed just like how PCs are. This will mean some weird things, like every humanoid will have a melee and ranged attack, even if it's just a 1-1 fist or thrown rock, but it can mean that any armor or weapons that the unit supposedly has will drop upon death. Plus, units can be tweaked to have more attributes or weapon skills.