Author Topic: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes  (Read 55438 times)

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2009, 08:32:03 PM »
My thing is...why is there so many keys to learn when you can use a generic 'u'se key for a lot of them.  Or, maybe even a 'e'quip key for all equipment.  I know there is probably more to that under the hood, but I'm not a programmer.  This is about the only thing that bugs me.

I'm split on this one.  On the one hand, there's no reason why the command for putting on your gloves needs to be different from the one for putting on say, a ring.  With that said, in some cases it can be better for keeping the number of key presses needed for any given action down, or for avoiding presenting the player with an inconveniently large number of options when they only need to choose from a few specific things.

As an example of the latter, I support using 'r'ead for scrolls and 'q'uaff or 'd'rink for potions.  They're mechanically similar, sometimes even identical, but they're also items that the player tends to carry a lot of.  If they weren't separate, then every time you'd press 'u'se you'd get 50 options of every potion, scroll, wand, staff, etc in your inventory, and you lose more time finding and picking out the one you need from the large list than you'd lose from just learning separate commands.  For things like wands and staves where the player generally only carries a few though, I think it's dumb to use separate commands.

I'll use my own project as an example of limiting key presses.  In my game I'm working on, there are separate buttons for using 's'kills and 'm'agic, even though they're mechanically almost identical (the main difference being only that skills use stamina and magic uses your magic energy).

Despite being almost the same thing, I'm separating them, because I'm shooting for about 26 of each - one for each letter key on your keyboard.  If they were unified under one key, I would either need to have the player cycle through two pages to see everything, adding an unnecessary key press to the action, or I would have to expand which keys are used for skills to number keys and beyond - making it far more complicated to memorize everything than just remembering 's' for skills and 'm' for magic would be.  With the way I have it, you only need to press two keys to use any non-directional ability, or three for ones that need to be targeted.  Some commonly used abilities will have their own specific key, so you only need one or two key presses to use them.

I really don't like the way, say, ToME handles it, where you press 'm' for magic, then you have to choose whether to cast a spell or store a spell or whatever, and then you have to choose a book, then a spell within that book, and then finally you have to press a key for what you want the spell to be cast on.  That's five key presses for an action that takes a single turn, and it's something you'll need to do all the time.  I consider mages to be unplayable in that game unless you learn how to make spell macros for that reason, and of course, learning to do that means that you have to spend even more time figuring out the controls and how it's all done.

Slash

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2009, 08:34:35 PM »
A Standard could be defined, and the developers would decide whether or not their game is compliant...

Ex

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2009, 09:09:43 PM »
I like the idea of some kind of standard, but a standard doesn't need to be strict. It could include different options, like "Either use 'u' or enter for all actions or use 'q' to drink, 'w' to wear, etc. etc." I personally like extremely simple interfaces and menus, but others like a lot of keys being used. Perhaps the standard could provide an option for either style? We could even provide an option for developers who have access to GUIs and such.

Skeletor

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2009, 12:33:33 AM »
Maybe a good way to start this work could be to create a table with all the keys of every possible action in major roguelikes.
Something like this:

                           ADOM           Nethack         Angband        Crawl      IVAN     Doomrl
attack ranged         t                     etc..            
change tactic         F1-F7
character info         @
clean ears               E
close door              c
controls list             ?  
dip                          !
drink                       D
drop                        d
engrave                [N.A.]
kick                         k
pick up item             ,
pray                        _
read                        r
reload                  [N.A.]
use wand                z
use                         U
wipe face                F

Obviously first of all we should decide what roguelikes are enough "major" to be taken in consideration.
With the table we could immediately see which keys are the same for the most major roguelikes and create a general standard where those major roguelikes action/keys would 90% fit.

Just my 2 cents, I don't know! :-)
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.

Hi

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2009, 11:50:34 PM »
I think a chart of what keys major roguelikes use has actually already been made but I can't find it.

The movement standard that I'd most prefer is the directional keys for movement. You can easily get diagonals by holding down two keys, and it would cut down on some of the initial barriers to learning how to play.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:17:40 AM by Hi »

Numeron

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 12:16:02 AM »
Quote
You can easily get diagonals by holding down two keys, and it would cut down on some of the initial barriers to learning how to play.

This is pretty poor form IMO, and while implementing it is possible, it would be too easy to accidently move orthagonally while trying to go diagonal.

getter77

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2009, 02:47:49 AM »
Quote
You can easily get diagonals by holding down two keys, and it would cut down on some of the initial barriers to learning how to play.

This is pretty poor form IMO, and while implementing it is possible, it would be too easy to accidently move orthagonally while trying to go diagonal.

Historically, whose bright idea was it to NOT go with an 8 direction pad waay back when in keyboards standards land?  Really, they need to be smacked in the back of the head since this would've made so many things that much simpler.
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Slash

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2009, 03:11:54 AM »
Maybe a good way to start this work could be to create a table with all the keys of every possible action in major roguelikes.
Something like this:


I did such gigantic chart some years ago... may be I must give a look to my old computer...

Skeletor

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2009, 03:26:37 AM »
Great!
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.


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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2009, 08:30:45 PM »
There was something like this .... ah here
http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Preferred_Key_Controls
And here
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/browse_frm/thread/c4ebcb235cc275dc/?pli=1

Ahh, handy! I've started work on a new roguelike recently, and the dilemma of key layouts has been bothering me for some time now. This should come in quite handy, especially the first link. :)
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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2009, 08:52:20 PM »
There was something like this .... ah here
http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Preferred_Key_Controls
And here
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/browse_frm/thread/c4ebcb235cc275dc/?pli=1

As a player, this looks pretty good to me.  It also looks easier to learn for first time players too.  I have had many friends wonder how in the world I can remember what keys do what when most of keys on the keyboard are used.

ido

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2010, 09:23:01 AM »

Historically, whose bright idea was it to NOT go with an 8 direction pad waay back when in keyboards standards land? 

Actually the 4 arrow keys are a younger addition to the pc keyboard than the numpad, the original pc keyboard had the latter but not the former:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/IBM_5150_Keyboard.jpg

getter77

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2010, 02:48:23 PM »

Historically, whose bright idea was it to NOT go with an 8 direction pad waay back when in keyboards standards land? 

Actually the 4 arrow keys are a younger addition to the pc keyboard than the numpad, the original pc keyboard had the latter but not the former:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/IBM_5150_Keyboard.jpg

Bah, but the Numpad is a confusing beast what with its numbers, and Home, and Pg Dn and the like---there's no mystique to the beloved arrows.   :P
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AmnEn

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Re: Project(?): creating a standard for keyboard controls in roguelikes
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2010, 06:49:46 PM »
I'm naturally frustrated with roguelike controls for the sole reason of the Numpad. Most if not all roguelikes heavily rely on it with no way for me to rebind it. Me being a Notebook User, thus have to rely on using really obscure keyboard shortcuts to temporarily activate a simulated Numpad which of course overrides other keys, walk diagonally, deactivate it again to do an action, reactivate it yet again and... wash, rinse and repeat.

When I dabbled in Processing for a bit, I used something different. I had the Control Key tilt the Arrow Keys by 45° counter clockwise. While holding Control, pressing the Up Key would move the character up/left. The right arrow would move it up/right, etc. It worked for me and felt intuitive too. If it was suggested already, sorry, still do it, implement it, stop shunning Notebook Users :P