Going beyond hack and slash

[stefoid]

I reckon the big three aspects of roguelikes are progression, discovery and tactics.

Of all the ways of categorizing roguelikes, this may be the most interesting I've seen. I'll have to think about these aspects and various other games.

I can't see *anything* other than progression: discovery is your progression of knowledge about the game world and tactics is the progression to your approach in combat.

Actually, for games, it's *all* about progression, otherwise it's grinding:
In super mario it's about game world progression (new environments), tactics (different monsters) and player run n jump skill.
In roguelikes, the way stefoid framed it, it's about character progression (new powers etc), game world progression (discovery of new places, things, creatures) and tactics (progression of how you deal with enemies, combat-based or not)

It looks like Elig complained that in Crawl mid/late-game there is a halt in tactics progression. And the praise for nethack is that there so many special things programmed so that world and tactics progression keep till the end.

It's obviously more difficult to develop a long game that exhibits continuous progression and doesn't result in grinding. Nethack and crawl and other major roguelikes had YEARS of development to add and refine content. Yes, combat may not be one's thing, but then again, required wiki reading may not be one's thing either. So, nothing's fundamentally wrong with either, in a permadeath scenario.

So, IMO, progression is essential. Dying should give progress on some of your game knowledge, obviously. The difficult task is, can the game offer you a sense of progression till you reach where you were when you last died? And I'm not talking by just creating differently shaped dungeons. Otherwise permadeath requires you to grind till you get where you were, so that you begin discovering and progressing again.

Hi!

I think your painting progression with too wide a brush.  While discovery is technically a progression of knowledge, its qualitatively different to progression of your character's capabilities.  It feels different.  I can set goals to progress my characters capabilities using well known means, and still get satisfaction from achieving those goals, whereas discovery is the  thrill of the new - the trepidation or excitement you feel when encountering something new and unknown.  Its a bit like a sugar hit in that sense - its great and then its gone and you have to find some more sugar.  I guess the real trick to providing discovery in a game is how to do it without just adding more content.  Nethack has a lot of content, but it also has a bunch of semi-procedural interactions between items and creatures that are there to discover.  "I can polymorph a pile of stuff!" 

[Vanguard]

The beginning of Crawl is amazing, but the midgame and endgame just become a kind of FPS with swords. It's kill your way to victory. Better equipment, better character, still just killing things until you win. It's boring. It's like playing an FPS. Many other roguelikes have this same problem: the entire game revolves purely around killing your way to victory while progressing purely forward in a linear way.

The problem with crawl isn't that it's only about fighting, it's that it's only about fighting and 90% of the fights are solved by mashing tab until you win.

Sil is almost entirely about combat, but it manages to be consistently engaging because positioning and movement are so important and most enemy groups can kill you if you mess up.

[Vanguard]

Combat isn't inherently any more shallow or repetitive than any other type of gameplay, is what I'm saying

[mushroom patch]

@Vanguard, agreed except that you seem to be mistaken on one point: Crawl is the best roguelike available today (although with the release of mushroom patch simulator, that may change).

Perhaps if sil had a robust public server/online playing community, it would be a contender.

Also worth noting that crawl speedrunning tends to make heavy use of noncombat mechanics, so while it's true you can just bash/blast your way to victory once you have some experience with the game, it's not true that you can exhaust the possibilities of the game through hack and slash.

[Vanguard]

Crawl is the best roguelike available today

It's mediocre at best

[mushroom patch]

I agree, it's an unfortunate state of affairs that by some measures the best roguelike available is found lacking, but that's life. We can only wait for the release of mushroom patch simulator (MPS).

[Krice]

I don't believe MPS exists. Nothing proves it.

[Kyzrati]

You're right! I think mushroom patch should start a blog in which he devotes years to writing about how much he's not accomplishing.

[Omnivore]

You're right! I think mushroom patch should start a blog in which he devotes years to writing about how much he's not accomplishing.

+1 Great idea.  It would be so unique and original, it.. wait..

Ah well, I see there's some other guy that's been doing that for years and years.

[mushroom patch]

Not to derail an otherwise fascinating thread, but when people come with their slings and arrows, assailing me and my work I just think of others who have been persecuted for bringing a message the establishment didn't want to hear. I draw my inspiration from the determination of a man like Galileo, who even under duress and torture by the Inquisition insisted eppur si muove. After all compared to the motion of Earth around the Sun, news of mushroom patch simulator (MPS) is surely even more difficult to accept. If I may quote Nietzsche: "This prodigious event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than the most distant star..."

I won't let the dogma of people who refuse to see a better way slow me down. Indeed, if I did we might never see a release. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes, what matters is what I believe, since I know the truth I bear witness to here.

I like the blog idea though.

[Krice]

But it's not a real game, because there is no playable version of it. And because I as random internet forum user say so, it doesn't exist.

[mushroom patch]

That's what I'm saying. Since you're not me, you're random, which is to say someone whose opinion of my work is, first of all, uninformed and anyway highly suspect, since any idiot can post on the internet and many do. Now on the other hand, if I had said my game doesn't exist, that might mean something -- that's not just some random idiot spouting off. That's me! But I'm not saying that. Quite the opposite, in fact.

So while it would be one thing if you weren't just some random poster on the internet saying mushroom patch simulator (MPS) doesn't exist, the fact is you are and therefore I will continue to talk constantly about my game, make favorable comparisons between my game and everything else in creation, and carry on in the manner that a Renaissance master might have done if he were in the process of creating the defining work of his time.

[chooseusername]

You're right! I think mushroom patch should start a blog in which he devotes years to writing about how much he's not accomplishing.

+1 Great idea.  It would be so unique and original, it.. wait..

Ah well, I see there's some other guy that's been doing that for years and years.

Passive aggressive attacks on other forum members doesn't make for a healthy forum.

[Omnivore]

You're right! I think mushroom patch should start a blog in which he devotes years to writing about how much he's not accomplishing.

+1 Great idea.  It would be so unique and original, it.. wait..

Ah well, I see there's some other guy that's been doing that for years and years.

Passive aggressive attacks on other forum members doesn't make for a healthy forum.

I was not being passive aggressive, nor was I attacking anyone, I was attempting to be humorous.  Evidently I failed.  If any of the parties actually involved in the statements take offense, I am sorry for the lame attempt at humor and any unintentional perceived attack.

[mushroom patch]

It's okay, man. I recognize that as a pioneer, I'm bound to be the target of derision and scorn. Sort of like a modern day Ada Lovelace.