Author Topic: Looking for a roguelike like this  (Read 47079 times)

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2009, 10:52:34 AM »
Maybe you could try playing Ragnarok via DosBox? (I've tried it myself and it works, at least on XP)

I think Meritous has not much common with roguelikes... although it's a nice game (to play once, I don't think it's replayable).

It's hard to suggest something to someone who has quite radically different views (I have said what I think about ASCII, and about games which need a hundred keys, they usually do it for a reason - they are richer, which I like; and even if there are some parts of the interface which are genuinely unreasonably bad, learning this interface is only a tiny fraction of skill required to win the game... not sure what you mean about not buying from the creator).

getter77

  • Protector of the Temple
  • Global Moderator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4952
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2009, 12:16:33 PM »
All right, glad Meritous managed to do the trick so far!...I'd still recommend hitting up the other mentioned ones as the fancy strikes ya over time though.

I can probably relate on hesitance to order direct from creators.  It is not uncommon for people to be more comfortable with working through third party merchants that have a bit more "vouch clout" in terms of refunds/identity rather than ordering direct----call it a professional touch.  Mainly though, that's moreso been what is generally conditioned as the norm in retail sales online, especially game sales, with only now that digital distrobution retail is starting to come about.  Granted, none of this stopped me from buying a Lifetime license to UnReal World, but still---we've established I'm weird.
Brian Emre Jeffears
Aspiring Designer/Programmer/Composer
In Training

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2009, 05:43:02 PM »
Regarding direct ordering: I support the free (as in free speech) culture movement in art, which means that I don't treat copies of pieces of art (like music, computer games, books, etc) as physical objects with physical value, and thus I don't feel morally obliged to pay for experiencing a piece of art. I feel gratitude towards authors who create masterpieces, and thus I am very happy to pay (donate to) them, but not towards distributors, whom I dislike for some reasons. They say that in case of music records only a small portion of revenue is given to artists, so I don't buy them; I don't know what is the case of computer games, I prefer to not buy them at all (seeing that there are so many free great roguelikes around), but donations to authors themselves are OK for me. That's also linked to the reason why I play roguelikes and other indies (which care about gameplay) rather than commercial games (which in my feeling sometimes care rather about whether the game sells well).

Thinking about it, I have a new suggestion: DROD (Deadly Rooms of Death, Architect Edition). This is not a roguelike, but a puzzle game... or maybe a puzzle/roguelike hybrid would be a better description. The roguelike feature it lacks is randomness, and everything what follows, but from Rya.Reisender's other posts I conclude it should not be a problem :) Graphics are good and  getting into is very easy. (In accordance with my views above, I bought the sequel after having really great time with the first part.)

getter77

  • Protector of the Temple
  • Global Moderator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4952
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2009, 06:08:57 PM »
Regarding direct ordering: I support the free (as in free speech) culture movement in art, which means that I don't treat copies of pieces of art (like music, computer games, books, etc) as physical objects with physical value, and thus I don't feel morally obliged to pay for experiencing a piece of art. I feel gratitude towards authors who create masterpieces, and thus I am very happy to pay (donate to) them, but not towards distributors, whom I dislike for some reasons. They say that in case of music records only a small portion of revenue is given to artists, so I don't buy them; I don't know what is the case of computer games, I prefer to not buy them at all (seeing that there are so many free great roguelikes around), but donations to authors themselves are OK for me. That's also linked to the reason why I play roguelikes and other indies (which care about gameplay) rather than commercial games (which in my feeling sometimes care rather about whether the game sells well).

Thinking about it, I have a new suggestion: DROD (Deadly Rooms of Death, Architect Edition). This is not a roguelike, but a puzzle game... or maybe a puzzle/roguelike hybrid would be a better description. The roguelike feature it lacks is randomness, and everything what follows, but from Rya.Reisender's other posts I conclude it should not be a problem :) Graphics are good and  getting into is very easy. (In accordance with my views above, I bought the sequel after having really great time with the first part.)


Yours is a common mindset Z, one that I can only hope people within the various spheres of influence also come to have as it would make many a thing MUCH simpler.   8)

Otherwise, to piggyback on your alternative suggestion---perhaps DROG RPG: Tendry's Tale would be the ideal candidate?
Brian Emre Jeffears
Aspiring Designer/Programmer/Composer
In Training

Rya.Reisender

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2009, 06:22:03 AM »
With the direct ordering it's more a matter of trust. If they just send me the game for free and then I can decide whether to donate or not then that's fine for me (though honestly I'd never donate if I didn't have to, I mean I hate paying online). The problem with ordering directly is that I just don't trust people. I'm not going to give out any personal data to someone I don't really know. Only because he made a good game doesn't make him trustworthy.
On Amazon it's a bit different. First of all Amazon offers the option to pay by bill, that means I first get the game and then pay for it. Also if something went wrong I could just send the game back without paying for it ever. And I don't need to give out any personal data except my address.
And even if I paid via bank account, there's still the rating system. If I see 12000 people bought from a distributor and 100% were satisfied I automatically gain some trust in it.

Even though it seems like the developer is being cheated that's not really the case. The distribution of the money usually depends on the expenses of each participant.
Developer -> Paying the programmers
Publisher -> Paying for the QA testing, holding the main risk of a product to fail, responsible for advertisement
Store -> Paying for the workers (info service / cashier), also offering all kinds of services (maintaining website, giving back the product, repairing, ...)
Putting all of these things in the hand of the developer isn't very 'safe'.


Also um, I'm looking for a roguelike to have roguelike features. I mean especially the fast-paced dialogue-free gaming (which causes you to not quit forever when you die) and the random generated dungeons (also increasing replay value) are important here. If it wasn't for them I would just go and play some JRPG (which I usually do). Though I might look into DROD anyway.


I beat Meritous, really cool game.

I tried Crawl again and get a lot further with Troll Monk than with the other classes. I can usually get to Floor 5-7 now but then there is some Wizard monster that always kills me before I can even reach it (it does like 12 HP ranged damage each turn). Any idea what to do about them?

getter77

  • Protector of the Temple
  • Global Moderator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4952
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2009, 12:14:03 PM »
Well, as a Monk you could also take on a religion like Trog for some abilities...but otherwise those times are good ones to use Wands and any useful long distance weapons you might have come across like Boulders.  Another big thing with magic users is that if they can't see you, they won't be able to cast and will close in----so if you can hide around a corner far enough you can rush them and stand a much better chance in straight melee of winning before they can get off enough point blank spells.
Brian Emre Jeffears
Aspiring Designer/Programmer/Composer
In Training

Rya.Reisender

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2009, 12:53:58 PM »
How many steps do I need to be around the corner so they can't see me? Two?

Also I couldn't figure out how to join a religion. I found that temple with all those religious stones and could pray there, then it prompted me if I want to convert to that religion, but I can't press "y" only "n" works.

Do wands work good against Wizards? I usually have only around 2 when I first encounter them and sometimes I didn't even get to identify them. Also I never found one that's actually very useful, except maybe Slow Wand. But I mean each time I use a wand the wizard will counter with a spell so I'll just take even more damage. Same for throwing! Throwing does pretty miserable damage (I tried darts and rocks), I think it's probably better to get close to them instead! Also is there some way to throw items fast without having to select them each time?

getter77

  • Protector of the Temple
  • Global Moderator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4952
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 01:48:28 PM »
IIRC, 2 steps usually does the trick around a corner.

Odd on that religion front, though some races and such can't follow certain religions on account of incompatibility...so perhaps that was the case...

Wands can work great against anybody, depending on what they do.  Outside of using a scroll of identify, you might try a test zap on some weak enemy like a rat to find out the effects it has.  As a melee person, sometimes they outright save you versus bad situatons not unlike the Staves in Shiren..

I think you can use f or t for more streamlined throwing...can't recall.

Honestly, as it HAS been awhile for me, you'd be best served asking some of the currently hyper-active Crawlers out there here(or just reading their tales and learning):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.misc/topics?lnk
Brian Emre Jeffears
Aspiring Designer/Programmer/Composer
In Training

Slash

  • Creator of Roguetemple
  • Administrator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Karma: +4/-1
    • View Profile
    • Slashie.net
    • Email
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2009, 03:14:07 PM »
DrashRL complies with all your specification, you may like it! http://slashie.net/page.php?14

* Easy  to get into, no classes, no races, very simple command set...
* 2D Sprite graphics, uses both a ripped Ultima tileset (in VGA, EGA and CGA modes) as well as the David Gervais tileset. It can also display ASCII output
* Has a save feature
* Free to download.

CastlevaniaRL fits too... but it is not *as simple*... be sure to check the other games at http://slashie.net :)

Rya.Reisender

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2009, 06:35:28 PM »
Those two look interesting, I already started them up to test a bit. In Castlevania I can't get far, I don't know a way how to recover (walking doesn't help?) and monsters seem to keep coming non-stop.

Drash is even harder. I'm basically put on the first floor 50 monsters around me and they seem to be kicking me around while being able to move more than I am, what the...?

Also why do roguelikes always have to make such an extensive use of keys? Why not use one key for all actions? I mean when I am on an item and press 'the key' I obviously want to pick the item up, why do I need to memorize a key for picking up, I don't get it. x-x

That's why I mentioned Fatal Labyrinth to begin with. In it you can detect hidden walls and pickup items for example both with the same key. It's directly context-sensitive. Fighting monsters works just by walking again them, no extra key needed (well that works in most roguelikes, a miracle!) and instead of having separate keys for using/throwing/dropping one key just opens a menu where you select an item and then select Use/Throw/Drop/Equip.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:08:29 PM by Rya.Reisender »

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2009, 11:24:16 AM »
Suppose you see a menu where each option has a hot key associated. Do you navigate to your desired option using mouse or arrow keys, or press a hot key? Maybe WIMP interface is more straightforward, but pressing a hot key is faster and easier in the long run. Generally, the more of the keyboard is used (that is, the more keys), the easier is it to perform things for a player who has mastered the power of the keyboard in general and the keyboard layout of the particular game. Leaving a keypress or a keypress combination meaningless is a kind of loss (unless the set of actions in the game is already "saturated" by assigned keys). Roguelike designers often don't implement WIMP interfaces at all, seeing how much more cumbersome they are.

In traditional roguelike interface, I just have to press 2 keys to perform an action like dropping an item. How many keypresses, clicks, and mouse movements are required in the interface you suggest? I have played POWDER which uses something like that, and it was much more cumbersome.

Regarding pick-up versus search: it's not that obvious that when you are standing on a item, you want to pick it up, and otherwise you want to search. What if you want to search in a room filled with junk? IMO it's also more logical to have separate keys for such different actions. Maybe Fatal Labyrinth was designed in such a way that it is obvious in its case, but most roguelikes are not. Thus, they do need a separate key for searching. It would be possible to wire the pickup key so that is performs search when there is nothing to pick up, but why do that if there is a search key anyway? Besides, many traditional roguelikes (e.g. Crawl) have auto-pickup feature, which means that you don't even need to press a key to pick up.

On the other hand, what should happen if the user presses a movement key, and he obviously can't move in the desired location? Doing nothing would be a loss of keyboard power. Thus, doors are opened, and monsters are attacked.

Rya.Reisender

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2009, 01:25:31 PM »
Quote
On the other hand, what should happen if the user presses a movement key, and he obviously can't move in the desired location? Doing nothing would be a loss of keyboard power. Thus, doors are opened, and monsters are attacked.
Yeah and exactly this is good design.

You have a point that hotkeys are helpful, but they shouldn't be the only possible option. I'm the type that doesn't use hotkeys usually. Even when I'm programming I rather use the main menu with the mouse to do things like "open" "save" "program options" instead of memorizing the hotkey for them. On the other hand copy/cut/paste is nice to use with hotkeys. A normal windows application always offers both. You can select everything via the main menu, but each entry also has a hotkey. That's good design. If you know the hotkey you can use it, if you can't remember it you can easily browse the menu for the action you want and it doesn't take significantly more time than using the hotkey.

Auto-pickup in Crawl is really nice, but it already gets disturbed by the fact that you have to cut the corpses before you get their meat. I wish you'd just get it automatically into your inventory after a kill. Not to mention that rotten meat could be dropped automatically. Also auto-pickup doesn't work for equipment. I guess there's some config with which you could change it, but it probably would be just "all / none" and not "only those that are better than your current equip". Even if there was, I would still complain that the config isn't very obvious, there no menu for it either, you have to read through a mere text file until you find it.

Either way, Crawl does pretty good already. It could still need a few improvements so that everything could be done with mouse (instead of Shift+Click for drop it should just be possible to drag an item on the ground). And without the cutting and praying it already gets pretty close to what I'm looking for. Could still be a bit easier. I often have the feeling that I did nothing wrong and still died because some adsurdly huge mob was around me with no way to escape or some monster that isn't usually pretty strong suddenly causes some instant death on me.

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2009, 03:44:59 PM »
Roguelike developers often work of their own motivation and they don't add features they don't like, as long as there are still features they do like to add (i.e. forever). Originally, NetHack, Angband, ADOM, and Crawl all had traditional roguelike keyboard interfaces and ASCII graphics as an only option. Crawl was lucky enough to get someone who wanted to add graphics to it, although they did not bother to add a proper menu interface; still, people like me prefer playing the traditional version. Not sure about NetHack and Angband (I don't play these). ADOM remains a traditional roguelike (not surprisingly, since it is closed source) and has its fans. Less popular roguelikes also remain traditional, even if open source, since less people care about them.

Maybe adding newbie friendly interfaces would increase the number of players. That probably was what authors of old commercial roguelikes thought: Valhalla (aka Ragnarok) and JauntTrooper (aka Mission Thunderbolt). Both are IMO great roguelikes (for their times), and included nice graphics, both menu and hotkey control (although I always wondered, why the hotkey to select scrolls in Valhalla is "?"?... after playing traditional roguelikes this became obvious), and permadeath only as an option (although recommended for hardcore players). Yet both of them AFAIK did not achieve commercial success. And since they were commercial, they did not achieve success among roguelike fans either. Probably because they usually prefer playing for free.

Enjoying roguelikes (as gameplay style), free games, ASCII games, permadeath games, and hotkey-driven games are all uncommon tastes in people, I think. But it seems that the rare those who enjoy roguelikes are usually also in other groups with uncommon tastes I mentioned... This would explain why roguelikes fail commercially. Maybe the times have changed since times of Valhalla and Thunderbolt, I don't know...

Rya.Reisender

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2009, 03:59:28 PM »
You can't really blame userfriendly controls for the fact, that they didn't become popular, though.

Also I think developers should also listen to the players and not only do what they like themselves. You claim they are never 'done' with their roguelike, but I can't really imagine that. I mean there must be some point where you think you're done with your game and want to make a new one.
In Rogue Planets I was done with the game with version 1.0 and released it. Then I got some feedback from players that liked it and added their suggestions in version 1.1 and 1.2 which made controls / playing for them easier, without changing the core gameplay.

getter77

  • Protector of the Temple
  • Global Moderator
  • Rogueliker
  • *****
  • Posts: 4952
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Looking for a roguelike like this
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2009, 04:14:58 PM »
Heh, don't get me started on what happened with the Jaunt Trooper series Z...my giant topic and far flung plans still remain there for all to see on the board.   :P

That said, the Fushigi Dungeon franchise as a whole achieving some substantial success in the grand scheme of things otherwise is probably something Western Roguelike devs should bear in mind---though I've yet to discern why Fatal Labyrinth was left in the lurch following Dragon Crystal on MS/GG.  As times change, some things stay the same though.  I KNOW that Scallywag: In the Lair of the Medusa has not sold well  (Though I have my plan to change this at least somewhat....plus the whole thing where the company seems to have imploded into some state of disarray or some such from what I've pieced together over on Shrapnel) and I have no concrete ideas really on the sales of Mines of Morgoth at this junction---really should send noodles an email to see how things are going since my last PM awhile back seems to have been overlooked.
Brian Emre Jeffears
Aspiring Designer/Programmer/Composer
In Training