Author Topic: Rogue - let's beat it  (Read 108493 times)

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #315 on: March 17, 2020, 09:05:07 PM »
I just tried v3 and yeah, much easier! I think the DOS version wasn't that easy... but probably close.

Playing v3 was hilarious, like on a permanent potion of hallucination: monster letters were different, and half of the time I had no idea which monster I was facing. The funniest moment was me dutifully taking the armor off to fight an aquator, only to find out that it was a rattle snake.  Belatedly. I wouldn't have walked through the whole room towards it with a mace if I knew...

So is v5 really supposed to be that difficult?

mouser

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #316 on: March 18, 2020, 11:55:05 AM »

So is v5 really supposed to be that difficult?

The maintainer of rlgallery thinks it is. His rationale is that the developers tested the game with the bug (ISRUN bug from now on) and found it suitable for release, therefor implying that they were satisfied with the game balance.

After looking at the code myself, I think the game is not supposed to be that difficult. Long story short: there is code which is designed to grant any creature in the game a +4 bonus to hit anything that is paralyzed. The problem is that the checks that verify if a creature or the player is vulnerable to this bonus are botched. Monsters always get the bonus; the player never does.

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #317 on: March 18, 2020, 12:08:28 PM »
I've found a UNIX version 5.4.2. that runs on Windows in Retro Rogue Collection (https://github.com/mikeyk730/Rogue-Collection/blob/master/docs/readme.md) and tried it. It doesn't seem to have the +4 to hit thing. It's pretty easy in comparison to rlgallery's v5! Is 5.4.2. not the latest version of the game?

EDIT: OK I've started re-reading the topic and noticed people talking about 5.4.4. So I guess that was a dumb question. I didn't pay attention to version numbers at the time I was reading it first, they weren't important back then. And I didn't read the whole topic, either, because I was worried about spoilers about levels beyond 17. But I think I should now, otherwise I'm probably asking questions about things that have already been discussed.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 12:26:49 PM by Celes »

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #318 on: March 18, 2020, 06:48:57 PM »
I've read the thread and according to two people they've found the +4-to-hit 'feature' in both UNIX v5 and Epyx 1.48. The question is: why is the latter so much easier than the former anyway? I could say it's just me not being used to the UNIX version (letters, controls), but I'm not good enough player to consider this seriously.

Today I made it to lvl14, the farthest I got in the rlgallery's v5 so far, but what made the difference was not skill. It was my decision to enchant my starting mace and armor, rather than withhold enchantments for better weapon\armor that I'd probably never find anyway. And I certainly got unlucky that I didn't find anything to get me out of jam on all these floors (and oh, a wraith took off half of my HP permanently), so I died, but I'd have died on deep levels anyway without a 2H sword (or so people say in this thread).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 06:53:00 PM by Celes »

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #319 on: March 18, 2020, 07:21:41 PM »
Right.  It's virtually impossible with the base mace.  I've made it deep before, but you're not beating up tough monsters with that weapon without some tricks up your sleeve. Slow monster or polymorph being two of the biggies.

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #320 on: March 18, 2020, 07:28:27 PM »
OMG...  I've found a hilarious bug! :) :P

I'm playing an Epyx 1.48 version now (I split myself between it and the UNIX version online) from the Retro Rogue Collection.

This time rattlesnakes sapped my STR so much that after running for stairs I couldn't beat a single rattlesnake on the next floor. I hit and hit it (successfully, just damage too low) and quaffed 2 healing potions in the process but it showed no sign of dying. Eventually my STR dropped all the way to zero.

It was a lost cause but I kept hitting the snake wondering if my hits also do zero damage. Suddenly BAM it was dead! Shocked, I stared and my screen and saw that I had 3 HP left and my STR was 31(31)! Apparently it broke the game's mind that someone's STR managed to fall below zero, so it went back up to the max instead.



I wonder if this bug is present in other versions, as well. :)

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #321 on: March 19, 2020, 03:33:32 PM »
Right.  It's virtually impossible with the base mace.  I've made it deep before, but you're not beating up tough monsters with that weapon without some tricks up your sleeve. Slow monster or polymorph being two of the biggies.
So it's actually more or less possible to win the game with a mace? Provided you've got enough other tricks? Otherwise, I was thinking of applying the advice of fames from the first page of the topic and only starting the game that gives me a 2H sword outright :) I even tried that, but never succeeded in starting a game in a room with a 2H sword. Or any other weapon, for that matter.

Good news! I made it to lvl19! :) Yay! My record has been lvl17 up til now. But my first ever griffin killed me. I don't remember much about that game, they all kind of blend together for me. I made it to lvl16 twice and lvl15 once, too. It's too bad that the Retro Rogue Collection (with the Epyx version) doesn't have recording so I can't analyze what I did wrong. Or rather it does in a sense, you can replay a save, but the problem is that it (naturally) deletes the save when you die, so there's nothing to replay.

But I still didn't see any infamous medusas, I just rushed through the floors. I bumped into something called Ur-Vile (?) but it was killable. The griffin was not, but I fail to remember the circumstances. I probably had no tricks with me.

In one of the games I wore a teleport ring after identifying it, thinking that if the identification didn't say so then it wasn't cursed, but apparently it's always cursed. It didn't work the way I hoped, too, teleporting me immediately to safetely. But somehow I dispatched of that troll on my own. The ring proved to be rather helpful, though, teleporting me round and round and helping me find the stairs faster. I think that's how I made it to floor 19.

Got to lvl14 twice in the UNIX version, too. Again I don't remember much about the games. I don't know how you managed to write such detailed accounts of your games in the thread.

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #322 on: March 19, 2020, 07:35:32 PM »
Today I nearly ran into the same bug online, but it looks like in 5.4.?. STR never falls lower than 3. I guess someone noticed and patched it in UNIX versions.

That said, how DO you avoid loss of STR? There's no way to shoot Rs down before they reach you when you keep running into them in dark rooms or hallways  ???
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 07:37:18 PM by Celes »

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #323 on: March 19, 2020, 08:09:55 PM »
This is funny, someone playing Rogue ;D
https://youtu.be/PDFLAArINEA?t=839

Another moment like that :D:
https://youtu.be/PDFLAArINEA?t=1732

Legitimately a novice, he kept trying to eat to restore health, too.

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #324 on: March 19, 2020, 09:46:48 PM »
Made it to lvl20 in the Epyx 1.48!  :P Medusa killed me. We met in the hallway, and I started backing away, but strangely, she did not confuse me. Or maybe she did but I still landed hits? I don't know for sure, that's the first time in my life that I've seen her. Anyway, I had lots of tricks to deal with the situation, but I grossly underestimated her, thinking that I can kill her just by hitting. It's because I read somewhere that she's weak. Such a stupid death. I had a wand of polymorph, a wand of teleport away, a ring of stealth, a 2H sword (which I didn't use because I enchanted my mace), and plate armor. Great stash. And all because I thought she was weak, I didn't use the wands! I will never underestimate you again, Medusa.

It looks like I'm alone posting here, this is a little bit embarrassing.  ::)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 09:48:42 PM by Celes »

mouser

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #325 on: March 20, 2020, 03:55:20 PM »
Made it to lvl20 in the Epyx 1.48!  :P Medusa killed me. We met in the hallway, and I started backing away, but strangely, she did not confuse me. Or maybe she did but I still landed hits? I don't know for sure, that's the first time in my life that I've seen her. Anyway, I had lots of tricks to deal with the situation, but I grossly underestimated her, thinking that I can kill her just by hitting. It's because I read somewhere that she's weak. Such a stupid death. I had a wand of polymorph, a wand of teleport away, a ring of stealth, a 2H sword (which I didn't use because I enchanted my mace), and plate armor. Great stash. And all because I thought she was weak, I didn't use the wands! I will never underestimate you again, Medusa.

It looks like I'm alone posting here, this is a little bit embarrassing.  ::)

There are conditions that make you immune to Medusa's gaze, maybe that explains it.

Also, when you are confused, you can still land hits afaik. If you are in a corridor, you only have two ways to go, so you have a 50% chance of moving to the proper direction and performing an attack on the intended target.

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #326 on: March 21, 2020, 02:16:46 AM »
There are conditions that make you immune to Medusa's gaze, maybe that explains it.

That must be it! I found this line in one of the guides:
Quote
if you hit the Medusa before it confuses you while you can see it, then it can't confuse you

That's exactly what happened in my game. I saw the letter M suddenly appear right next to me, and the next turn was mine. She walked up to me right from the darkness and by doing that she'd spent her turn. I hit her of course, I was stupidly confident. But that's how she lost her ability to confuse me :) I honestly don't know how you'd survive a Medusa confused for 20 turns, she killed me in about 3 hits, I think.

And oh those rattlesnakes... I hate them!

I started restarting unless I find at least a long sword on first two floors, which is why I'm playing the Epyx version now. People probably check the 'Recent Games' board online, and if I played like this online I'd have it filled up with myself and 'quit on lvl1' and 'quit on lvl2'. But I'll be dropping in from time to time to play without restarting.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 02:19:26 AM by Celes »

mouser

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #327 on: March 22, 2020, 03:18:24 PM »
I started restarting unless I find at least a long sword on first two floors, which is why I'm playing the Epyx version now. People probably check the 'Recent Games' board online, and if I played like this online I'd have it filled up with myself and 'quit on lvl1' and 'quit on lvl2'. But I'll be dropping in from time to time to play without restarting.

That is a bit extreme :-)

I usually find that my problem is more related to lacking potions, wands and items than cool weapons. Oftentimes you can get hosed because you didn't have a "free-from-jail" card even if you are walking around in enchanted plate armor and carry a 2h sword.

Celes

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #328 on: March 22, 2020, 06:34:31 PM »
The main reason I'm trying to find a good weapon fast is the inventory... It gets full so quickly! I started drinking potions as soon as I find them, but that's not enough, very soon I have to read some scrolls, too. And it's such a waste to read an enchant weapon scroll on a mace, they're too scarce in the game. With a 0,0 sword you won't connect to enemies anyway if you've wasted everything on a mace...

My problem so far isn't items, I just don't make it to the levels beyond 17 most of the time. :) I usually die from being sandwiched in between a troll and someone else. Most wands and scrolls are useless when you're sandwiched. Basically I start backing away to regenerate health and end up sandwiched. That's why I keep thinking that I need a better sword: if I stopped missing so many hits I could've killed a lot of those trolls without the need to retreat so far back.

Yesterday I found a 2H sword and two enchant weapon scrolls, and sure enough they enchanted it to 0,+2. That's cool, but not helpful for connecting hits. ::)

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #329 on: March 24, 2020, 01:59:16 AM »
The main reason I'm trying to find a good weapon fast is the inventory... It gets full so quickly! I started drinking potions as soon as I find them, but that's not enough, very soon I have to read some scrolls, too. And it's such a waste to read an enchant weapon scroll on a mace, they're too scarce in the game. With a 0,0 sword you won't connect to enemies anyway if you've wasted everything on a mace...

My problem so far isn't items, I just don't make it to the levels beyond 17 most of the time. :) I usually die from being sandwiched in between a troll and someone else. Most wands and scrolls are useless when you're sandwiched. Basically I start backing away to regenerate health and end up sandwiched. That's why I keep thinking that I need a better sword: if I stopped missing so many hits I could've killed a lot of those trolls without the need to retreat so far back.

Yesterday I found a 2H sword and two enchant weapon scrolls, and sure enough they enchanted it to 0,+2. That's cool, but not helpful for connecting hits. ::)

Yeah, super tough to stay alive when your two-handed sword is +0, +x

Honestly there's not much you can do about rattlesnakes if it's a bad run.  It's not uncommon for their strength sapping to end a run for me. The main thing I keep in mind is that the magic number is five or something like that. You are okay until it falls below that number.  So save those common potions of restore strength until you absolutely need them or until you can boost your overall STR with potions of gain strength.

There is a ring of sustain strength and if you don't want to wear it all the time you can actually put it on while standing next to a rattlesnake and it immediately takes effect.  Same goes for rings of sustain armor while standing next to an Aquator.

Congrats on getting so deep in the cave!