Major moral controversial features in a game.

[Endorya]

I once posted this following subject in some other forum and the reaction to it wasn't that great, and I post it in a forum filled with grownup people. Not that their reaction wasn't that bad but they simply started to view me as someone... crazy. Not to mention the thread was later removed from the forum. It seems it is fine to make movies and write books about these things but as soon as they go inside a game, the whole world collapses. I thought that PEGI 18+ ratings existed for a reason.

I enjoy a lot playing games with endless possibilities, I think that most of you feel the same way, especially if you are a rogue like fan. But Before I get into details, I just want to make sure you know that I take no part in real life of the following features that I'm about mention, in fact I despise every human being who exercise them; I just want to make sure of this, one should always apply extra caution when dealing with possible retards, whose disposition to see the difference between reality and computer games is practically non-existent.

It seems that killing, for the most of us, is just something completely ordinary; I mean taking the life of an in-game character, including animals and children. But the minute you add rapping and torture, it seems you might just be crossing the line. How would you feel about having a game where the option to molest and torturing someone was there? I mean, you, having the possibility to play as the ultimate bad guy. It is not like the game urges you to use those actions upon NPCs, they would simply be there in case you felt like using them and to handle their consequences. These actions would also be viewed as something really bad within the game. Take Fallout as example, if you murdered a child you would be flagged as 'child murderer' making many NPCs to permanently cease interaction with your char: "Stay the fuck away from me you child murdurer!"

What are your thoughts on this subject? I'm extremely curious to see how this forum will handle this topic.

[EDIT]
Before you post please make sure you read my post at page 4 starting with: *** Explanation ***

[tuturto]

It would be interesting to see a game where this had been implemented well. I'm sure it would draw negative attention to it too, which one should keep in mind while writing such a game. And the game should warn about such content in very clear and plain language. Not only because underage people shouldn't be playing it, but also as a warning for people who would not want to encounter such content.

[Krice]

It seems that killing, for the most of us, is just something completely ordinary; I mean taking the life of an in-game character, including animals and children. But the minute you add rapping and torture, it seems you might just be crossing the line.

It's because how se see killing in the context of killing "bad guys". It's probably the reason why we human race can't get rid of wars. They would end right when killing would be always a bad thing. But in war it's heroic. Torturing is different, it's something terrorists do, so it's bad. Those real life ideas are seen similar way in games. Killing is ok, torturing is not. Then again, it's an interesting idea. Less dramatic idea could be threatening someone to get his stuff or make him do something.

[TheCreator]

What is the point of playing a game if you cannot do things that are not allowed/possible in the real world?

[Endorya]

It would be interesting to see a game where this had been implemented well. I'm sure it would draw negative attention to it too, which one should keep in mind while writing such a game. And the game should warn about such content in very clear and plain language. Not only because underage people shouldn't be playing it, but also as a warning for people who would not want to encounter such content.

Totally agreed. That warning would definitely be implemented. But lets think about this for a moment. The game is warning you about content that the player has full total control over it; it is not like the player will be forced to deal with things he doesn't want to be part of. The player is the one who decides what actions to use throughout his whole playing time.

[Endorya]

It's because how se see killing in the context of killing "bad guys". It's probably the reason why we human race can't get rid of wars. They would end right when killing would be always a bad thing. But in war it's heroic. Torturing is different, it's something terrorists do, so it's bad. Those real life ideas are seen similar way in games. Killing is ok, torturing is not. Then again, it's an interesting idea. Less dramatic idea could be threatening someone to get his stuff or make him do something.

I actually meant killing any kind of people, regardless of their alignment. Nowadays most open world RPGs let you do this. Take Skyrim as example, you can just go to town and start slaying its citizens just in the name of fun. People are simply fine with this, but why shouldn't they? It's just a freaking game and you are the one who choose your actions. These type of games have also a built-in moral code that condemn evil actions. It's all fine as long you don't harm innocent people through torture or sexual abuse; killing innocent people is completely approved though.

Bethesda removed the ability of letting children being killed in Skyrim because they feared the game could be banned in certain countries. So it was up to us, the players to create a mod to change this. "Fascinating!" - Spock.

[Endorya]

What is the point of playing a game if you cannot do things that are not allowed/possible in the real world?

Exactly my point. I've talked with family members, friends and co-works and only a handful of all these people fully understood my point of view. For most people, specially those who don't play games, it seems that allowing you committing atrocities in a virtual world is somehow telling those who play these games that they should do the same in the real world. I simply can't fucking understand how can one view the issue like this. I've exhausted my head beyond words trying to view their point of view with some logic, unfortunately with no success whatsoever.

I would understand that having such features could influence a rapist in some way, but for fucks sake, the same thing could be said from rape scenes from movies or books. But the real question is, how having someone with a dangerous fantasy should be someone else's problem? People with mental disorders should simply be locked away and not the other way around. We developers should not feel castrated in our work discarding the possibility of having yellow birds in our games just because there is a fool in china that kills old ladies whenever he plays Flappy Bird.

[miki151]

Good topic. I think Tome4 recently had a feature removed following players' request because of excessive killing of orc children (?)

Killing in games doesn't offend anyone because it's so present in everyday media. People don't pay attention to it as long as it's not happening in their immediate surrounding. Rape, on the other hand is much more dodgy, you rarely see it in the movies. Myself I would feel really uncomfortable to see it in a game, especially if I was to do it as a character. Similarly, I wouldn't put it in my own game. It's not that I think rape is any worse than murder, it's something else, maybe in the culture.

There are other things too, like slavery and racism. Both have been ever present in our culture. I wonder if there is any game, perhaps trying to be historically accurate, where the white race is dominating another race.

[mushroom patch]

I guess I agree with your point of view that this kind of gameplay shouldn't be rejected out of hand. When you play a game, you're playing a role. It's very much like acting. Saying it's immoral to write or play a game featuring these kinds of possibilities is along the same lines as saying it's immoral to write or act in a TV series like Game of Thrones (although I suppose this too is mildly controversial).

On the other hand, I still think there are lines that shouldn't be crossed for non-edifying entertainment purposes. I think there's good reason that people balk at the notion of a game allowing the player to molest children. Generally, the boundaries of what's acceptable in video games should be the same as the boundaries for drama. A lot of people confuse themselves on this matter by bringing in notions of agency in video games to try to put distance between games and other more widely understood things, like drama. In fact, the differences are inconsequential from a moral perspective.

[Endorya]

Myself I would feel really uncomfortable to see it in a game, especially if I was to do it as a character.

That's my whole point, you don't have to do it if you don't want to. You are not forced to execute those actions. Alternatively, you could have an option to hide those very actions from your character's action list. I would fully understand that people would be uncomfortable (I know I would) by having games rewarding the player for executing quests with goals like killing innocent animals just in name of cruelty. I hate the game Deer Hunter because I really can't find any joy in hunting animals for sport, not even in a virtual sense. Nonetheless, I'm NOT against its existence as it's just a game for fraks sake. Give me a game where I can kill people just in the name of fun and I will surely play it; I surely enjoyed Carmageddon franchise.

[miki151]

Yeah, that's funny, I will happily play a game where I kill human(oid)s, but not something like Deer Hunter. Even though in real life I'd kill an animal before a human. I guess that killing human(oid)s has gotten so neutral in the culture that it's treated outside of all other wrongdoings (talking about fiction and the media all the time).

[Endorya]

I guess I agree with your point of view that this kind of gameplay shouldn't be rejected out of hand. When you play a game, you're playing a role. It's very much like acting. Saying it's immoral to write or play a game featuring these kinds of possibilities is along the same lines as saying it's immoral to write or act in a TV series like Game of Thrones (although I suppose this too is mildly controversial).

On the other hand, I still think there are lines that shouldn't be crossed for non-edifying entertainment purposes. I think there's good reason that people balk at the notion of a game allowing the player to molest children. Generally, the boundaries of what's acceptable in video games should be the same as the boundaries for drama. A lot of people confuse themselves on this matter by bringing in notions of agency in video games to try to put distance between games and other more widely understood things, like drama. In fact, the differences are inconsequential from a moral perspective.

Yeah. From their perspective they should be really be concerned with horror movies, nothing can be as shocking as a well made horror movie containing all sorts of gore, guided through a disturbing plot. I keep urging everyone around me to think with their wits instead of their hearts. One thing I've learned is avoiding bringing up this discussion to women, unless you really know they are up to it; their protective instinct as mothers is so incredible that it completely blocks their reasoning.

[reaver]

Well, controversial features in games is a bit touchier because it becomes role-play rather than passive viewing. If you (as in "one" rather than you of course) want to go around killing, raping and torturing innocents, and you derive your fun from killing, raping and torturing innocents rather than fun gameplay mechanics, then that might say a few things about your character.    I think killing has become ok as sometimes it is actually ok (self-defense, intruders, etc). But you never torture to protect your self/loved ones/country, etc. In all the RPG games that I've played, I've seen (and sometimes saved) many torture victims, but I never had to do the torture myself. They let that feature be passive (view/experience) rather than active (role-play).

I guess if you're so itchy to make a rape/torture game, go for it, just try not to anger your player base though

[Endorya]

Well, controversial features in games is a bit touchier because it becomes role-play rather than passive viewing. If you (as in "one" rather than you of course) want to go around killing, raping and torturing innocents, and you derive your fun from killing, raping and torturing innocents rather than fun gameplay mechanics, then that might say a few things about your character.    I think killing has become ok as sometimes it is actually ok (self-defense, intruders, etc). But you never torture to protect your self/loved ones/country, etc. In all the RPG games that I've played, I've seen (and sometimes saved) many torture victims, but I never had to do the torture myself. They let that feature be passive (view/experience) rather than active (role-play).

I guess if you're so itchy to make a rape/torture game, go for it, just try not to anger your player base though

You can role play a rapist character in a movie and you also can role play a rapist when writing a story around him. As I stated previously, you are not forced to use those options nor you are forced to try the game. The active role-playing only happens when you decide likewise; you are the one who has total control over the things you wish to do in the game; you are not forced to do anything you don't feel comfortable with nor the game will acknowledge evil actions as noble deeds.

I have absolutely not desire whatsoever in creating a game around raping and torturing but very interested in creating a game featuring total freedom for both good and evil intentions. Take Fallout as example, you could end up being a good or a bad fellow with irreversible and due consequences triggering around you.

[Rickton]

But the minute you add rapping and torture, it seems you might just be crossing the line.

Personally, I wold love to see a roguelike with rapping. Demoralize your opponents and gather followers with tight rhymes and wicked flow.

Killing in games doesn't offend anyone because it's so present in everyday media. People don't pay attention to it as long as it's not happening in their immediate surrounding. Rape, on the other hand is much more dodgy, you rarely see it in the movies. Myself I would feel really uncomfortable to see it in a game, especially if I was to do it as a character. Similarly, I wouldn't put it in my own game. It's not that I think rape is any worse than murder, it's something else, maybe in the culture.

Really, a large part of that is because rape hits a lot closer to home for more people. There aren't any murder victims playing games (by definition), but there are a lot of victims of rape and sexual assault (I think the statistics are 1 in 3 women and 1 in 6 men? Which is part of the reason women react more negatively to it, Endorya...it's something that is very likely to happen either to them or someone they're close to, they're not really being unreasonable, don't discount what they're saying just because you disagree with it). Since it's such a traumatic experience, a lot of people have some amount of PTSD about it, so experiencing realistic depictions of it can cause some pretty bad reactions (not just feeling uncomfortable, but panic attacks or flashbacks). On the flip side, treating it too lightly when it's something really really bad that happened to them is probably going to cause people to feel kind of uncomfortable about it at best, offended at worst (and partially that's cultural, rape is not really taken as seriously as it should be by most people considering how prevalent and traumatizing it is).

Now, of course, on the flip side there are people who have been victims of nonsexual violence, who might have PTSD and who might be made uncomfortable by depictions of violence. The difference would be that the types of violence they've experienced are probably not very like the types in games, and there's also a lot of ways to show violence without it being gratuitous or realistic, so that it might not bother even people who have been through it. Also, if they feel that way, they probably know how violent a game is going to be before they get too into it, and the violence is probably going to be an integral part of the game, so it's easy for them to know if they're even interested in it or not. If there's a rape, someone could have no problems with the rest of the game, but that one part could be so upsetting that they stop playing, and for what? What does rape add to the game?


And that's really the question you have to ask yourself: Why do you want to portray rape in a game? What purpose would it serve? Are you trying to make a larger point? If it's just to be "realistic," because, you know, someone could rape someone else, I don't really think that's a good reason. Are you going to include pissing and shitting too?
Is it just because nobody else is doing it? That's not necessarily a reason either. There are reasons nobody else is doing it. Now, I don't think that it's impossible that a game could handle rape well, but I find it pretty unlikely that putting it as an optional feature in a roguelike is going to be handling it well.



With regards to torture, there are some games out there that do feature it, but I think that's really just a "good guys don't use torture" thing. Dungeon Keeper, where you explicitly did play as the bad guy, featured torture chambers, and in Liberal Crime Squad you can kidnap and torture people (mainly psychologically) to brainwash them. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I think torture would be something that would be a little more socially acceptable than rape, especially in a medieval fantasy setting. In a modern day setting where you have to waterboard or electrically shock someone? That'd be a little dodgier, and again I think you'd really have to think about what you're trying to say and why because, again, it's something that's still going on so it hits a little too close to home.