Results for the 2013 Roguelike World Survey has been posted

[miki151]

And that's why I prefer character displays.  Specifically because they do NOT invite that kind of infinite variation in symbols.

How about mistaking a blue 'h' with purple 'h', i.e. a dwarf with a mindflayer?

Tiles have one big advantage over characters. You are able to see the terrain underneath items and creatures. Ever searched a whole level to find a staircase hidden below an apple?

[Omnivore]

And that's why I prefer character displays.  Specifically because they do NOT invite that kind of infinite variation in symbols.

How about mistaking a blue 'h' with purple 'h', i.e. a dwarf with a mindflayer?

Tiles have one big advantage over characters. You are able to see the terrain underneath items and creatures. Ever searched a whole level to find a staircase hidden below an apple?

Wow, I just realized, you don't even  play classic roguelikes!  I can't remember seeing a roguelike where it was possible to drop an item on a staircase.  Maybe my memory is more shot than I think but...

[AgingMinotaur]

Try ADOM.

As always,
Minotauros

[Omnivore]

Try ADOM.

As always,
Minotauros

That explains it.  I don't play ADOM due to it being closed source.  I feel it was a betrayal of the rogue-like community. 

[chooseusername]

Try ADOM.

As always,
Minotauros

That explains it.  I don't play ADOM due to it being closed source.  I feel it was a betrayal of the rogue-like community.

If you have views which are so extremely uncommon and to the common view unreasonable, then perhaps the relevance of your other views is questionable?

[Omnivore]

Try ADOM.

As always,
Minotauros

That explains it.  I don't play ADOM due to it being closed source.  I feel it was a betrayal of the rogue-like community.

If you have views which are so extremely uncommon and to the common view unreasonable, then perhaps the relevance of your other views is questionable?

My views are neither uncommon nor unreasonable within my peer group.  And before you ask, no I don't support commercialized roguelikes either.

[Bear]

@bear: I think there's room to experiment with graphical UIs that extrapolate on the abstractness you're talking about.
....
In a GUI, they could have name tags with their initials, or attached icons to indicate they are questgivers, or whatever. Using a GUI also makes it easier to put more tactical info directly in the map (health bars, animated hits/misses), relieving the player of having to glance over at the message log every turn.

Oh, definitely true that.  Attaching name tags, health bars, quest giver icons, etc. is all extending tactically and strategically important symbolic information, and I like all of it!  The more the merrier, that isn't the problem at all!  Where I have a problem is when we allow (visual) depiction to start distorting or obscuring (symbolic) representation - when I can observe that something is different but not know whether the difference is intended to represent something tactically or strategically important. 

There is a very necessary role for symbols in an abstract game. Symbols must not be distorted (or embellished or added to...) if there is even the slightest chance that distortion will make their interpretation as symbols uncertain.  As long as you can avoid that possibility, I have no problem with sighted people getting all happy about pretty pictures.  And if you find a symbolic vocabulary that allows you to graphically add more unambiguous information to the display (health bars, etc) that's awesome too - but then don't distort those symbols either!

Roguelike games present a sort of extreme here, because we need to distinguish, with certainty, among literally hundreds of different kinds of tactically different entities within the games.  We need those tactically different entities represented as symbols to show their tactical identities, and we need to know whether anything we're looking at does or does not represent a different symbol as opposed to some minor variation or circumstance applied to a known symbol. 

[Bear]

How about mistaking a blue 'h' with purple 'h', i.e. a dwarf with a mindflayer?

If you're playing on a term that uses blue and purple colors you can't differentiate, and you haven't gone and fixed your term color settings, that is not the developer's fault. 

On the other hand, if the developer used colors for blue and purple that you can't differentiate, and attached tactically important differences to the distinction...  and you have no access to the palette because it's not in your term settings? Then you can't distinguish blue from purple in that game, and it is unfair and it is the developer's fault, and you're almost guaranteed to lose.

[mushroom patch]

And that's why I prefer character displays.  Specifically because they do NOT invite that kind of infinite variation in symbols.

How about mistaking a blue 'h' with purple 'h', i.e. a dwarf with a mindflayer?

Tiles have one big advantage over characters. You are able to see the terrain underneath items and creatures. Ever searched a whole level to find a staircase hidden below an apple?

I've definitely played games with terminal-ish interfaces where monsters' identities are sometimes confusing, but then again I come across a lot of line graphs with color coding I find confusing as well. A lot of people are fairly insensitive to the issue of color deficiency. It's definitely better to provide high contrast UIs -- tiles could help there, but they don't always. Some games provide a text summary of monsters in view in one of the margins to the side of the map, which I think is the right way to go on this issue. You're absolutely right that this is something can be and often is done badly.

re: "the only big new thing", consider that making a major RL takes a decade, as well as immense skill and luck, and also that these kinds of polls will always be flooded with ignoramuses voting for stuff like The Binding of Isaac.

I don't think it's been true historically that major roguelikes have needed a decade of development to catch on and achieve prominence in the genre. It surely takes a lot of work, skill, and luck.

Tarn realized graphics were holding him back and looked to the roguelike approach for a solution. So to answer your question, I don't think Dwarf Fortress would have been made at all by a developer who spends his time on tiles.

This almost becomes a tautology: If Tarn hadn't had the time to design DF, there would be no DF I see your point that opting for a terminal(like) interface leaves more time and room for game development. There's also the argument that there are no fancy graphics to lead attention away from bad gameplay. If your aesthetically awesome game sucks underneath, people might still get fooled by the graphics, but a game with very basic UI just needs to be well designed to raise any positive attention at all. All of this has been discussed to death already, perhaps.

I don't see it being a tautology. It's not purely a matter of time either.

At the end of the day, UI is mostly just look and feel, though. Earlier, you're talking about how "the internet has brought more people into its social aspect," and one effect of this is that the cost of game art also goes down. Why shouldn't a designer team up with a graphical artist or tap into game-icons.net or opengameart.org, if s/he so wishes? And for one-person teams, finishing a relatively fleshed-out RL takes years. If a few weeks or more is spent by the developer making crappy (or awesome) art, it probably just amounts to a drop in the ocean. Terminal output of RLs are almost inherently beautiful and pleasant UIs, I'll grant you that, but if someone wants a more specialized GUI for their game, I see no fundamental problem in that.

UI is not just about look and feel. I really can't believe how far people here have gotten from the roots of the genre. It's not about look and feel. It's about functionality. Graphical interfaces are less functional than terminal interfaces in critical ways. (Also, regarding mouse support, all modern terminal emulators understand mouse events.) They don't have the kind of interoperability and built-in network friendliness that terminals have.

[mounta1nman]

It's not a real terminal interface, but if you have ideas and a simple, nongraphical interface, there are players.

I haven't caught up with this thread yet, but this made me chuckle.. First terminal interface was necessary, but then it shifts to non-graphical is A-OK. Haha.

anyway, besides that funny... er, and what is non-graphical? you mean text-adventure? haha. (no offense to text-adventure-enthusiasts.)

and yes, people prefer less abstract symbols over more abstract symbols. for instance, I prefer somewhat-artistic chess pieces over P-R-K-B-Q-K etc. I hope that appreciation isn't less than obvious.

[mushroom patch]

It's not a real terminal interface, but if you have ideas and a simple, nongraphical interface, there are players.

I haven't caught up with this thread yet, but this made me chuckle.. First terminal interface was necessary, but then it shifts to non-graphical is A-OK. Haha.

anyway, besides that funny... er, and what is non-graphical? you mean text-adventure? haha. (no offense to text-adventure-enthusiasts.)

and yes, people prefer less abstract symbols over more abstract symbols. for instance, I prefer somewhat-artistic chess pieces over P-R-K-B-Q-K etc. I hope that appreciation isn't less than obvious.

Wow, good post.

[getter77]

The terminal is just one thing---where history truly went wrong is Hyperbolic planes never taking off proper!   Also, the predominant terminal focus on Squares shall rouse The Old Ones...the Hexes...from their murderous, deified slumber.   I also blame too much impetus on Bitmap in the formative years without proper mind being paid to Vector wranglings outside of the damned Flash situation/Adobe's lack of vision---they should've advanced together roughly apace for what wonders each may bring.


Imagine an ADOM in the trappings of HyperRogue 4.x!  A world to truly explore~   


Beware the Alice's rabbit hole that is tremendous minutiae folks---it robs you of the ability to dream big and feel things out.

Surprised there's been no chatter on The Ground Gives Way yet...but it is good to see incavead and such getting some love of a sort.

[mushroom patch]

Imagine an ADOM in the trappings of HyperRogue 4.x!  A world to truly explore~   

Yeah, ADOM in a setting where the area enclosed by a circle increases exponentially with its radius. Sounds awesome! Imagine HyperADOM where a town contains more tiles than you see in an entire game of ADOM.

Truly a world to explore~!

[miki151]

Tiles have one big advantage over characters. You are able to see the terrain underneath items and creatures. Ever searched a whole level to find a staircase hidden below an apple?

Wow, I just realized, you don't even  play classic roguelikes!  I can't remember seeing a roguelike where it was possible to drop an item on a staircase.  Maybe my memory is more shot than I think but...

Wow, good one! I've won Nethack more than a dozen of times, and ADOM too. The only game I know where you can't do this is Brogue (?). And I was talking about things obscuring other things in general. Boy, it's difficult to get an argument across in here...

[AgingMinotaur]

Try ADOM.

That explains it.  I don't play ADOM due to it being closed source.  I feel it was a betrayal of the rogue-like community.

Okay. Nethack, then

As always,
Mintauros