skill-based RL?

[Kneller]

If this multiposts, I apologize. I'm having a little trouble getting my first post to show up on the forums.

Lately, I've been playing a bit of Spelunky and Labyrinth: Secrets of ShadowHaven (on ArmorGames). Both of these I like. I die a lot, and often don't get far, but it's always due to sloppy playing rather than random chance. I also liked the first couple Diablo games, and Torchlight, even though they are a bit of a clickfest. I know that these aren't pure RLs, but they are in that vein. I've played a few proper RLs many years ago, but was discouraged by frequent deaths due to circumstances I could not control or even avoid. Anyway, I'm looking to delve into some more in-depth RLs, and am looking for suggestions. I don't mind the dying, as long as it's (usually/mostly/maybe always) because I screwed up, and not the game screwing me. Despite listing a bunch of real-time graphical rogueish games, I really don't mind anything that is turn-based or has ASCII graphics. Thanks for any suggestions.

[mushroom patch]

I recommend dcss. It's the best thing going right now in traditional roguelike games. Play online via telnet or webtiles.

I don't know what games you played before, but unless you played nethack (maybe even then), you were probably not actually dying to circumstances beyond your control/"getting screwed by the game", but it's easy to think otherwise when you start out. It's important to get past this sort of attitude to enjoy and get better at roguelike games.

[Vanguard]

I don't think you're going to find many roguelikes where dying is absolutely never your fault, but there are also going to be a lot of times where your failure was your own fault despite feeling like it wasn't.  Mushroom's advice is good.

If fairness is your main concern then one problem with dungeon crawl stone soup is that the hardest part of the game is right at the beginning, and that's also when you have the fewest options and when the RNG's influence is at its strongest.  It is still deep and fair enough that the best players can win multiple games in a row, and it's designed to be beatable without using any spoilers.

I'd say Mage Guild is a good choice.  It's relatively short and easy (still hard by non-RL standards) and the RNG's influence isn't very strong.

You should check out PrincessRL too.  I don't think it's as fair as Mage Guild, but running out of health doesn't immediately end your game, so that might be less frustrating for you.  Beating the final boss isn't hard at all, but some of the optional challenges are really tough.

[Kneller]

I don't know what games you played before...

DoomRL: I kinda liked it, but even going with "optimal builds" I would get to a point where the odds were so stacked against me that it would take a lot of luck to survive a level. I remember it specifically because of the Doom reference and it's clearly different than a lot of RLs.

I played a zombie one where I would get mobbed and be dead in under five minutes, even after getting a guide on the web.

I played a few other traditional medieval fantasy RLs, but I can't remember the names, they all seemed pretty samey to me. I'd find stuff (weapons, armor, etc.) but have no way to identify it. I remember one in particular where the only way to identify your items was to drink/read a "mysterious" potion/scroll (which you also had no way of identifying) in hopes that it would identify all your gear. Of course, it was just as likely to be poison and kill you. I often felt like I was playing Russian roulette. I wish I could be more specific, but all that fantasy medieval magic stuff just blends together for me. On that note, do you also know of any stable modern or post-apoc RLs?

I'll check out MageGuild and PrincessRL, though.

[awake]

Potion-identifying is like the classic case of an actually fair "unfair" death. Most games provide a safer way to figure out what something is, or at least narrow it down to whether or not it's safe. Paranoia is a virtue. If you do stuff that's "mostly safe" in a RL the dice will get you sooner or later.

I'm not that big on the standard fantasy settings myself but having the option to play as a flesh-eating ghoul or a samurai or something usually makes up for it (see: Dungeon Crawl and Nethack respectively). Infra Arcana is a horror/Lovecraft RL set in the 20s that gets nothing but praise and seems stable but I haven't tried it myself.

[Snee]

I havent played it in a LONG time, but Cthuluband was an actual thing, back in the day, wasn't it? I don't know it was more skill based than other variants, though. Winnable, as I recall.