### Author Topic: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death  (Read 82487 times)

#### LazyCat

• Rogueliker
• Posts: 208
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #150 on: April 17, 2014, 03:24:34 PM »
wtf? Eat a donut and take it down a notch, human!

#### LazyCat

• Rogueliker
• Posts: 208
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #151 on: April 17, 2014, 03:34:21 PM »
Top notch hypocrisy.

I accept your wickedness and unnatural desire to torture yourself with tedious repetition, I do not mind permadeath at all.

#### AgingMinotaur

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• Original Discriminating Buffalo Man
##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #152 on: April 17, 2014, 04:10:16 PM »
wtf? Eat a donut and take it down a notch, human!

My great grandfather was a nazi, you insensitive clod!

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

#### Krice

• (Banned)
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #153 on: April 17, 2014, 08:20:11 PM »
or talking to Krice about women

I don't want to talk about women, I want to have one.

Since this topic is off anyway, I want to say about permadeath that there is something deeper in it that we don't always realize. For some people it means tedious replaying, but I think there is more to it for people with better imagination.

• Rogueliker
• Posts: 329
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #154 on: April 17, 2014, 08:43:21 PM »
My interpretation of all this "give an alternative to permadeath" discussion that has been going on, is that the do-not-want-to-play-permadeath-faction couldn't provide any real alternatives that the not-anti-permadeath-faction found acceptable.

Is this a fair interpretation?

#### mushroom patch

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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #155 on: April 17, 2014, 09:11:22 PM »
wtf? Eat a donut and take it down a notch, human!

lol

My interpretation of all this "give an alternative to permadeath" discussion that has been going on, is that the do-not-want-to-play-permadeath-faction couldn't provide any real alternatives that the not-anti-permadeath-faction found acceptable.

Is this a fair interpretation?

Yeah, pretty much. Everyone wins given sufficient time does not have the universal appeal the everyone-wins faction seems to believe it has.

Everyone-wins doesn't seem to be able to conceptualize the fact that the absolute-lose-condition faction doesn't merely want other people to lose ("torture! Hitler!") but actually wants to lose too.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:14:57 PM by mushroom patch »

#### reaver

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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #156 on: April 17, 2014, 09:35:35 PM »
My interpretation of all this "give an alternative to permadeath" discussion that has been going on, is that the do-not-want-to-play-permadeath-faction couldn't provide any real alternatives that the not-anti-permadeath-faction found acceptable.

Is this a fair interpretation?

There can never be a "real alternative" if you dismiss each and every suggestion as "not being a real alternative" because it's not permadeath.

• Rogueliker
• Posts: 329
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #157 on: April 17, 2014, 10:07:16 PM »
There can never be a "real alternative" if you dismiss each and every suggestion as "not being a real alternative" because it's not permadeath.
That's okay.  When you and the others who wish to play alternative approaches make your games, you can show them all how it can be done.  After all, all these threads weren't about telling other people they should stop making what interests them given that includes permadeath, and make what interests someone who doesn't like playing permadeath-based games?  Was it?

Otherwise, when people don't seem to by buying what you are selling, why continue to peddle it?

#### Rickton

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• Posts: 215
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #158 on: April 18, 2014, 04:09:40 AM »
My interpretation of all this "give an alternative to permadeath" discussion that has been going on, is that the do-not-want-to-play-permadeath-faction couldn't provide any real alternatives that the not-anti-permadeath-faction found acceptable.

Is this a fair interpretation?
The people who are actually posting on topic are providing some pretty good alternatives, or at least alternatives that would work in games designed around the mechanic.
A more accurate interpretation of the discussion would be that some people like to argue, and the ones who do will post incessantly several times a day, drowning out all other discussion.
Creator of the 7DRL Possession: Escape from the Nether Regions
And its sequel, simply titled Possession

#### reaver

• Rogueliker
• Posts: 207
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #159 on: April 18, 2014, 04:21:01 AM »
That's okay.  When you and the others who wish to play alternative approaches make your games, you can show them all how it can be done.  After all, all these threads weren't about telling other people they should stop making what interests them given that includes permadeath, and make what interests someone who doesn't like playing permadeath-based games?  Was it?

Otherwise, when people don't seem to by buying what you are selling, why continue to peddle it?

At least *I* was not forcing my opinion down to the permadeath lot's throats, you can play what you like, I'm not your enemy ffs. When I make a game, I will use one of the alternatives, yes. Fortunately, many have been suggested  thus far and I have a few extra thoughts on my own. But I think extreme/stubborn opinions and generalisation of some posts here paint everybody in a bad light; both sides appear very argumentative and aggressive-defensive and therefore the climate is not extremely healthy for civilised discussion anymore. As rickton said, good posts and suggestions have been drowned by stupid arguments.

Also, Jesus was save-scumming, so it must be ok Happy easter!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 04:31:36 AM by reaver »

#### Quendus

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• $@ \in \{1,W\} \times \{1,H\}$
##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #160 on: April 18, 2014, 06:09:50 AM »
The people who are actually posting on topic are providing some pretty good alternatives, or at least alternatives that would work in games designed around the mechanic.
A more accurate interpretation of the discussion would be that some people like to argue, and the ones who do will post incessantly several times a day, drowning out all other discussion.
Remember when people used to talk about more than one thing here? Remember when if one topic was an uninteresting mess you could read threads on totally unrelated topics?

#### Krice

• (Banned)
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #161 on: April 18, 2014, 10:18:03 AM »
couldn't provide any real alternatives

I guess some people don't like permadeath. But.. it's an essential feature of a game type called roguelike. So in a way this discussion has no meaning. There are role-playing games without permadeath, they are often called "role-playing games" or RPG. However often those games don't have random game world, but it's again one of their traditional features. I think the best way to solve this problem is start to make your own rogue(or whatever)like game with all the features you think are missing from this world. Trying to troll in a roguelike forum is more likely making roguelike developers more convinced that their roguelike will stay pure. It's like the discussion about "better" user interface back a while. It made me realize that I need to make controls in my roguelike games more complex, just to show those idiots.

#### mushroom patch

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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #162 on: April 18, 2014, 12:51:53 PM »
My interpretation of all this "give an alternative to permadeath" discussion that has been going on, is that the do-not-want-to-play-permadeath-faction couldn't provide any real alternatives that the not-anti-permadeath-faction found acceptable.

Is this a fair interpretation?
The people who are actually posting on topic are providing some pretty good alternatives, or at least alternatives that would work in games designed around the mechanic.
A more accurate interpretation of the discussion would be that some people like to argue, and the ones who do will post incessantly several times a day, drowning out all other discussion.

You asked an unfocused question that deals in themes that were the topic of recent arguments in other threads and you want to put it on everyone else that the result is a continuation of that argument?

There's exactly one reason that this thread derailed (although it's rails were pretty rickety from the start) into a continuation of that argument and that reason has been (rather irresponsibly, in my opinion) encouraged by others who want to cut out a space for the "everyone wins" perspective in roguelikes.

#### Rickton

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• Posts: 215
• Karma: +0/-0
##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #163 on: April 18, 2014, 02:53:47 PM »
You asked an unfocused question that deals in themes that were the topic of recent arguments in other threads and you want to put it on everyone else that the result is a continuation of that argument?
Uh, yes, I want to put the blame for arguing on the people who were arguing. That's how things usually work.
You don't have to respond, especially when you know that it's futile because of the person you're dealing with.

There's exactly one reason that this thread derailed (although it's rails were pretty rickety from the start) into a continuation of that argument and that reason has been (rather irresponsibly, in my opinion) encouraged by others who want to cut out a space for the "everyone wins" perspective in roguelikes.
My intention wasn't "everyone wins," but come up with new ways to lose. You're right, though, maybe I should have been more clear at the start. But while we're slinging blame around, LazyCat wasn't just encouraged by the people supporting him. People don't say "don't feed the trolls" because it's catchy.
On the other other hand, you're right, this is all my fault, because apparently even mentioning permadeath is enough to send him into a frenzy.
Creator of the 7DRL Possession: Escape from the Nether Regions
And its sequel, simply titled Possession

#### jim

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• Posts: 380
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##### Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #164 on: April 18, 2014, 04:06:16 PM »
wtf? Eat a donut and take it down a notch, human!