Author Topic: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death  (Read 81969 times)

Vanguard

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #120 on: April 16, 2014, 01:05:53 PM »
It's a one-time resurrection from a super rare item.  You still need to be careful.

Vanguard

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #121 on: April 16, 2014, 01:12:48 PM »
If done well, I guess sure. But does it "overcome the problem" of permadeath, though? Isn't it more just postpoing the inevitable? It sounds to me like playing ADOM starting out with a couple of amulets of life preserving, which is still basically playing ADOM.

I think he means you can save a finite number of times and load those saves an infinite number of times.  So yes, it solves the problem of being able to lose the game.

awake

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #122 on: April 16, 2014, 04:33:36 PM »
Resident Evil-style limited saves encourage self-torture (to me), replaying segments until you get the run through a section and then saving.




LazyCat

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #123 on: April 16, 2014, 05:29:08 PM »
Resident Evil-style limited saves encourage self-torture (to me), replaying segments until you get the run through a section and then saving.

If limited saves encourage self-torture, then permadeath and no saving at all is the ultimate torture. Correct? So what alternative are you suggesting?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 06:12:11 PM by LazyCat »

Endorya

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #124 on: April 16, 2014, 07:18:41 PM »
Resident Evil-style limited saves encourage self-torture (to me), replaying segments until you get the run through a section and then saving.

Yep. We always end up replaying events until we get them right, in one way or another. This is actually an universal law that applies to everything we do in life. The things we don't feel compelled replaying are the things we don't enjoy doing.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 07:21:00 PM by Endorya »
"You are never alone. Death is always near watching you."

jim

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #125 on: April 16, 2014, 07:47:37 PM »
Resident Evil-style limited saves encourage self-torture (to me), replaying segments until you get the run through a section and then saving.

Yeah, along those lines, that's why I could never get into the Fire Emblem series. I wanted to keep all of my characters alive. Knowing that all I had to do was reload from 30 minutes ago and give it another shot... I would end up doing the same thing with minor variations again and again until all pleasure was drained from what had become a compulsive experience (reminds me of when I was 13! right guys? ha! oh man.)

mushroom patch

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #126 on: April 16, 2014, 07:59:27 PM »
Resident Evil-style limited saves encourage self-torture (to me), replaying segments until you get the run through a section and then saving.

Yep. We always end up replaying events until we get them right, in one way or another. This is actually an universal law that applies to everything we do in life.

Not roguelikes.

I'm not going to argue this behavior doesn't exist, but does it feel healthy to you? I mean, you can pay people a lot of money to tell you not do this, you know?

Yeah, along those lines, that's why I could never get into the Fire Emblem series. I wanted to keep all of my characters alive. Knowing that all I had to do was reload from 30 minutes ago and give it another shot... I would end up doing the same thing with minor variations again and again until all pleasure was drained from what had become a compulsive experience (reminds me of when I was 13! right guys? ha! oh man.)

Right, in order to enjoy the game, you needed to be able to cope with your loss, but the game told you you didn't have to.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 08:03:59 PM by mushroom patch »

Endorya

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2014, 08:24:22 PM »
I'm not going to argue this behavior doesn't exist, but does it feel healthy to you?

What exactly does (or not) feel healthy to me?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 08:28:00 PM by Endorya »
"You are never alone. Death is always near watching you."

mushroom patch

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2014, 08:55:04 PM »
Replaying events, of course.

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #129 on: April 16, 2014, 11:57:20 PM »
If done well, I guess sure. But does it "overcome the problem" of permadeath, though? Isn't it more just postpoing the inevitable? It sounds to me like playing ADOM starting out with a couple of amulets of life preserving, which is still basically playing ADOM.
I think he means you can save a finite number of times and load those saves an infinite number of times.  So yes, it solves the problem of being able to lose the game.

I see. Still, there's the possibility of a (typically inexperienced) player spending all save points to reach the mid-game, and then failing to progress to the late end-game from there. So one would probably still have scenarios of having to give up certain characters and restarting, and being less round-handed with save slots this time, ie. "extended permadeath". That'd still entail a less harsh game than your typical RL, I suppose. But in the most ironic of situations, one could imagine a developer adding this feature to "appease the masses" and then balancing the game to be that much harder, so that you'll definitely need all your save slots to win, even if you play near perfect. The extra saves would only become yet another strategic element in a game that's still near-impossible to win :) The devil is in the details, of course, and I'd be very interested to see a game that's explicitly designed to be "RL without permadeath".

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

LazyCat

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #130 on: April 17, 2014, 03:54:10 AM »
What exactly does (or not) feel healthy to me?

He is obviously very unaware his definition of "replaying events" is vague and inconsistent. I suppose that time he was referring to reloading a game even if you don't die, but rather in an attempt to play a "perfect game".

Somehow he doesn't realise that permadeath is exactly like what he is complaining about, only even worse.

LazyCat

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #131 on: April 17, 2014, 04:51:07 AM »
The devil is in the details, of course, and I'd be very interested to see a game that's explicitly designed to be "RL without permadeath".

Whether you want to challenge yourself by completing any given game with only one life is not a matter of genre but personal preference. Number of lives is external difficulty, it's different and independent of game's internal difficulty. It's only imposed  difficulty modifier where different settings appeal to different people. You don't design a game around it, it works equally for any game, it's just a difficulty setting.

rust

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #132 on: April 17, 2014, 06:13:49 AM »
Somehow he doesn't realise that permadeath is exactly like what he is complaining about, only even worse.

Somehow you still haven't learned what procedural generation is.

Whether you want to challenge yourself by completing any given game with only one life is not a matter of genre but personal preference. Number of lives is external difficulty, it's different and independent of game's internal difficulty. It's only imposed  difficulty modifier where different settings appeal to different people. You don't design a game around it, it works equally for any game, it's just a difficulty setting.

Regards, a person who doesn't see the difference between Zelda and roguelikes.

Endorya

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #133 on: April 17, 2014, 07:52:46 AM »
Replaying events, of course.

Answer 1:
I really don't have a problem with replaying events as long there is room for improvement and I really don't want to discuss what people might classify as healthy or not as it is pointless, so feel free to classify it as unhealthy for as long as you like.

Answer 2:
Stating that replaying an event is unhealthy is as valid as having me saying that permadeath is for psycho-masochists only (I hope everyone one sees this as just a comparison). Anyway, replaying an event is not doing the exactly the same thing over and over but trying different approaches against it, until you eventually succeed to overcome it. Just imagine you having sex with the same old partner but trying different sex positions each time you do it. Eventually you will find out that a particular position is the best method to achieve "victory".
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 08:48:55 AM by Endorya »
"You are never alone. Death is always near watching you."

reaver

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Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #134 on: April 17, 2014, 08:05:53 AM »
Go on derailing yet another thread, bravo guys

\popcorn