Author Topic: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death  (Read 81959 times)

rust

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2014, 06:10:22 AM »
Patience. It is my patience that I don't like to challenge. As long as you are generalising you will not be able to differentiate different kinds of difficulty and understand they challenge different types of skill. You are confusing tedious with difficult.

There's little difficulty if you can just reload after dying, as others have pointed out earlier. Of course there are some exceptions, but none of them are RPGs.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2014, 07:51:16 AM »
There's little difficulty if you can just reload after dying, as others have pointed out earlier. Of course there are some exceptions, but none of them are RPGs.

Man, just stop wasting your time.  You are talking to a person too dishonest to admit that earning a bowling score of 300 takes more skill than a score of 10 because they don't like the conclusion it leads to.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2014, 09:30:03 AM »
Man, just stop wasting your time.  You are talking to a person too dishonest to admit that earning a bowling score of 300 takes more skill than a score of 10 because they don't like the conclusion it leads to.

You are confusing game difficulty with personal skill. Originally we were talking about difficulty and consecutive strikes. I said each strike is equally difficult to pull off, and probability for 12 consecutive strikes is proportional to skill and vary according to complex external random factors (luck). What part do you not understand?

As for permadeath, starting a new game and replaying again through all the easy levels is not difficult, it's tedious. That's the truth, I never lie. What's so hard to believe, isn't that how most people feel about it?

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2014, 09:48:50 AM »
You are confusing game difficulty with personal skill.

The two concepts are obviously related!  A person's skill is a measurement of what level of difficulty they can overcome.  A task's difficulty level is a description of how much skill a person needs in order to succeed.    Difficult things (like 12 consecutive strikes) require a high level of skill.  Easy things (like save scumming through a video game) do not require very much skill.  How could you possibly not understand this?  Why do you need such thorough explanations for such basic concepts?

rust

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2014, 09:57:50 AM »
As for permadeath, starting a new game and replaying again through all the easy levels is not difficult, it's tedious.

If it was equally easy to win a game with permadeath and a game with save scumming, then (given a large enough sample size) a player would win the same percentage of games in both ways. That's obviously not the case, so we can safely say that playing with permadeath is more difficult. Don't blame it on your impatience and accept it as a fact.

What's so hard to believe, isn't that how most people feel about it?

Most people don't play roguelikes.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2014, 10:31:37 AM »
The two concepts are obviously related!  A person's skill is a measurement of what level of difficulty they can overcome.  A task's difficulty level is a description of how much skill a person needs in order to succeed.    Difficult things (like 12 consecutive strikes) require a high level of skill.  Easy things (like save scumming through a video game) do not require very much skill.  How could you possibly not understand this?  Why do you need such thorough explanations for such basic concepts?

What skill? You again fail to be specific. Starting a new game and replaying again through all the easy levels is not difficult, it's just tedious. The skill required is masochistic patience. Congratulations, you have too much free time.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2014, 11:11:19 AM »
If it was equally easy to win a game with permadeath and a game with save scumming, then (given a large enough sample size) a player would win the same percentage of games in both ways. That's obviously not the case, so we can safely say that playing with permadeath is more difficult. Don't blame it on your impatience and accept it as a fact.

Tedium is type of difficulty too, it challenges your concentration and patience. You should try counting grains of sand, it's both difficult and tedious in the same time, you'll love it.


Quote
Most people don't play roguelikes.

I mean people who play roguelikes. There is only 14 of you permadeath fanatics in the whole world. And 11 of you are save-scumming like everyone else, including you. Admit it!

rust

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2014, 12:03:01 PM »

Tedium is type of difficulty too, it challenges your concentration and patience. You should try counting grains of sand, it's both difficult and tedious in the same time, you'll love it.

Well, at least you admitted that save scumming makes the game easier.


I mean people who play roguelikes. There is only 14 of you permadeath fanatics in the whole world. And 11 of you are save-scumming like everyone else, including you. Admit it!

Yes, yes, everyone likes what you like and everyone plays like you play. I guess that's why all these popular roguelikes have a built-in save scum feature.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 12:05:06 PM by rot13 »

mushroom patch

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 554
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2014, 01:41:09 PM »
Man, this thread really challenges my patience. It's not difficult giving extremely verbose and careful explanations of things everyone knows perfectly well, it's just tedious.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2014, 12:20:05 AM »
What skill? You again fail to be specific.

It's true for any kind of skill you idiot.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2014, 02:29:39 AM »
It's true for any kind of skill you idiot.

Little retard, patience is not the same skill as intelligence. A difficulty that challenges patience has its own name, it's called tedium.

A truck is a type of vehicle. You are trying to prove a truck is not truck by insisting it's actually a vehicle. Yes, playing all over from the beginning makes it more difficult, but to be more precise it only makes it more tedious.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2014, 07:19:19 AM »
It's only a test of your patience if you play like a moron and do the same thing over and over until the RNG finally works in your favor.  If you pay attention and learn from your mistakes you can start winning consistently.  Some Crawl players have been known to win multiple consecutive games.

guest509

  • Guest
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2014, 08:16:35 AM »
Lol. I come back in and it's a flame war. Of course.

As for the skill/luck dynamic, a solid player of any of the major RLs can win consistently. What's the record on Nethack runs? Like 27 in a row?

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2014, 11:03:42 AM »
It's only a test of your patience if you play like a moron and do the same thing over and over until the RNG finally works in your favor.

If a game requires skill, luck will not get you far. The joy of save scumming is exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting, it gives you a chance to play the same situation differently. A chance to experiment, to just play with it and have fun trying out different possibilities. It's a game, let yourself enjoy it.

I'm not interested to test my real life skills because I already know that I'm amazing, so when playing roguelikes I'm interested to test the skills of my game character, test certain character build and see how far it can go. I don't want to be punished in my real life for what happens on my computer screen, it's a role playing game, not torturing simulator.


Quote
If you pay attention and learn from your mistakes you can start winning consistently.  Some Crawl players have been known to win multiple consecutive games.

You will learn from your mistakes much faster if you let yourself replay and analyse the actual situation that killed you, analyse it straight away, instead of playing for another 27 hours until you get into only similar situation hoping to learn something from it that time around.

You see, thanks to save scumming I know things you don't, things you can't afford to experiment with, and if we were competing, I would have most certainly won.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 11:09:00 AM by LazyCat »

rust

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Permanent consequences for failure that aren't death
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2014, 11:17:03 AM »
You will learn from your mistakes much faster if you let yourself replay and analyse the actual situation that killed you, analyse it straight away, instead of playing for another 27 hours until you get into only similar situation hoping to learn something from it that time around.

I don't know why you insist that save scumming serves only to learn, while in reality you use it only not to lose every game you start. Do you hope we're too stupid to realize that?
The only thing save scumming teaches you is not to be careful, because you can always retry when something goes wrong and then your mistake never happened.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 11:30:04 AM by rot13 »