Author Topic: Zelda roguelike  (Read 17663 times)

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Zelda roguelike
« on: March 28, 2014, 12:36:33 AM »
Let's take some 2D Zelda for Gameboy or SNES and tweak the emulator so to run the game only if some button is pressed, but for a minimum of, say 60 frames, that is 1 second.  We get simultaneous turn-based game, we get a roguelike. Don't we? Does that sound like something you would like to play?


CaptainKraft

  • 7DRL Reviewer
  • Rogueliker
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 12:38:51 AM »
It would be interesting to try it out, but usually these kinds of things don't make a great game. What I would be more interested to see would be a game specifically made to be ZeldaRL
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 01:10:32 AM »
It would be interesting to try it out, but usually these kinds of things don't make a great game.

Do you actually see any reason why would it be less good than a regular roguelike?

I agree it needs to be tried out first, but so far I see no particular difference.


Quote
What I would be more interested to see would be a game specifically made to be ZeldaRL

There is! You can google it easily, exactly that: "ZeldaRL".

This all reminds me there is also turn based Pac-Man and Bomberman, orginally arcade games. They are perhaps rather boring, but with our special emulator any game could be made turn based, and I have a feeling many games would actually still preserve some of their original challenge and thus still be interesting and playable. Perhaps even more playable on mobile phones where they are otherwise really unplayable via touch-screen.

CaptainKraft

  • 7DRL Reviewer
  • Rogueliker
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 02:10:29 AM »
The major problem with going from real-time to turn-based is that the game was designed to work in very small steps (eg 30 fps). When you break that up into one second intervals, you will probably get behavior that doesn't work well.

Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, you should definitely try it out and see what happens.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

mushroom patch

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 554
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 02:30:41 AM »
Let's take some 2D Zelda for Gameboy or SNES and tweak the emulator so to run the game only if some button is pressed, but for a minimum of, say 60 frames, that is 1 second.  We get simultaneous turn-based game, we get a roguelike. Don't we? Does that sound like something you would like to play?



No, we wouldn't get a roguelike. No, it doesn't sound like something I would like to play. And no, let's not do that.

I hope this post is supposed to be some kind of parody of other threads or something...


Do you actually see any reason why would it be less good than a regular roguelike?


This is a better question. I think you have to clarify what you mean by "regular." If you mean what I usually mean, i.e. "real roguelikes," games that have a certain level of feature completeness with theme and mechanics in the vein of the original examples of the genre, then I would say obviously some hacked up junk made by lobotomizing an emulator and loading a zelda rom is going to be worse than, e.g. crawl or angband. If you mean will it be better than an average 7DRL, idk, maybe.

Quote
There is! You can google it easily, exactly that: "ZeldaRL".

This all reminds me there is also turn based Pac-Man and Bomberman, orginally arcade games. They are perhaps rather boring, but with our special emulator any game could be made turn based, and I have a feeling many games would actually still preserve some of their original challenge and thus still be interesting and playable. Perhaps even more playable on mobile phones where they are otherwise really unplayable via touch-screen.

I'm surprised by the tone of your response to CaptainKraft, given the spirit of charity in which he responded to your initial post. It seems apt to refer to the emulator you propose as "special" though. You seem to have your finger on the pulse of a certain misbegotten branch of the genre in which people take their favorite 80s or  90s video game and add "RL" to the end as the name/design of their 7DRL (or worse, long term project). I mean, at that point, why not just use the LazyCat arcade emulator (written by people inspired by his forum post, natch) to convert, say, Lode Runner into Lode RunnerRL?

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 03:09:13 AM »
The major problem with going from real-time to turn-based is that the game was designed to work in very small steps (eg 30 fps). When you break that up into one second intervals, you will probably get behavior that doesn't work well.

Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, you should definitely try it out and see what happens.

Can you be more specific, what would not work, why it would not work? Where is the difference, exactly?

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 03:52:50 AM »
Do you actually see any reason why would it be less good than a regular roguelike?

Zelda wasn't designed to function with turn-based rules in mind.  It wouldn't work even if we ignore problems caused by the lack of fine movements and the inability to make multiple inputs at once.

Most of the actions you perform in Zelda games are based around timing and precision.  The more tactically interesting situations are only interesting because you don't have unlimited time to think about them.  A better idea would be to adapt the things you like about Zelda into an original game with mechanics designed for turn-based play.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2014, 03:56:30 AM »
I would say obviously some hacked up junk made by lobotomizing an emulator and loading a zelda rom is going to be worse than [...] angband.

I wouldn't go that far.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2014, 04:11:52 AM »
No, we wouldn't get a roguelike.

And why do you think so. Where is the difference, exactly?

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2014, 04:25:49 AM »
And why do you think so. Where is the difference, exactly?

No randomized content.  Persistent saves/no permadeath.

Roguelikes are more than just turn-based adventure games.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 04:55:01 AM »
Zelda wasn't designed to function with turn-based rules in mind.  It wouldn't work even if we ignore problems caused by the lack of fine movements and the inability to make multiple inputs at once.

What would not work, and why exactly? What is the problem with "lack of fine movements"? Why would multiple inputs at once not be possible?

There is already one game that works like this, Red Rogue. Amazing game. You know?


Quote
Most of the actions you perform in Zelda games are based around timing and precision.  The more tactically interesting situations are only interesting because you don't have unlimited time to think about them.

Ok, worse than normal Zelda, but is it any worse than average roguelike? There would still be tactical challenge where to move, what enemy to attack first, what weapons and what items to use, as usual. What's the difference?

Take Red Rogue for example, "turn based mode" does not make it any less fun or even much easier. Same game, same design, and it works for both real-time and turn based mode, equally well I'd say. Wouldn't you agree?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 05:24:10 AM by LazyCat »

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 05:23:07 AM »
No randomized content.  Persistent saves/no permadeath.

I don't think that's much important to how fun or good would game be to play. This is not about labels and classifications, what "roguelike" means or not. This is about people who generally love playing roguelikes, and would they find Zelda games more appealing if they were turn based.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 05:26:09 AM »
Red Rogue is not Zelda.

mushroom patch

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 554
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 05:32:48 AM »
lol, this thread is classic. "Wouldn't roguelike players like Zelda games better if you hacked an emulator to insert artificial pauses in which to ponder the next move?" "WHY?? WHY WOULDN'T THIS WORK???"

I would say obviously some hacked up junk made by lobotomizing an emulator and loading a zelda rom is going to be worse than [...] angband.

I wouldn't go that far.

lol, touché.

LazyCat

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Zelda roguelike
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 05:46:20 AM »
Why indeed. You think it would not work, but you are unable to explain why. Do you even know?