Author Topic: My two cents about Permadeath  (Read 67573 times)

Krice

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2014, 07:17:33 PM »
the only difference is with permadeath you are wasting more time between the tries.

It's not the only difference, because each time the game world is different and even if it was the same it's impossible to make same moves without perfect memory. This was also obvious in old school games that did not have save game, even they had a static game world.

The way you lack basic understanding of games makes me think two possibilities: you are either a troll or a woman.

mushroom patch

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #166 on: April 12, 2014, 09:24:50 PM »
the only difference is with permadeath you are wasting more time between the tries.

It's not the only difference, because each time the game world is different and even if it was the same it's impossible to make same moves without perfect memory. This was also obvious in old school games that did not have save game, even they had a static game world.

The way you lack basic understanding of games makes me think two possibilities: you are either a troll or a woman.

It hit me this morning that when LazyCat says he beat Brogue without save scumming, it could be that he replayed the same seed (see the thread on random seeds) over and over until he won through memorization. This possibility is so hilarious and so consistent with the posts he's made, I've almost convinced myself it's what really happened.

LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #167 on: April 12, 2014, 10:50:05 PM »
It's not the only difference, because each time the game world is different and even if it was the same it's impossible to make same moves without perfect memory. This was also obvious in old school games that did not have save game, even they had a static game world.

The only difference regarding game difficulty. -- Old school games that did not have save game are arcade games, purpose of which was to waste your time in order to get your coins. On the other hand the purpose of permadeath is to wastes your time in order to punish you, by wasting your time.


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The way you lack basic understanding of games makes me think two possibilities: you are either a troll or a woman.

The way you phrased your unnecessary insult makes me think you have a small penis.

LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2014, 11:07:47 PM »
It hit me this morning that when LazyCat says he beat Brogue without save scumming, it could be that he replayed the same seed (see the thread on random seeds) over and over until he won through memorization. This possibility is so hilarious and so consistent with the posts he's made, I've almost convinced myself it's what really happened.

Can you describe how is memorization going to help? Did you mean to say "trial and error"? -- The only valid objection for save or check points was given by Awake regarding ID-game, though he also presented a solution.

mushroom patch

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #169 on: April 13, 2014, 12:01:20 AM »
It hit me this morning that when LazyCat says he beat Brogue without save scumming, it could be that he replayed the same seed (see the thread on random seeds) over and over until he won through memorization. This possibility is so hilarious and so consistent with the posts he's made, I've almost convinced myself it's what really happened.

Can you describe how is memorization going to help? Did you mean to say "trial and error"? -- The only valid objection for save or check points was given by Awake regarding ID-game, though he also presented a solution.

Okay, I'm going to take this as confirmation that my scenario above is indeed what happened.

Vanguard

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #170 on: April 13, 2014, 12:14:35 AM »
lol you're right

Vanguard

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #171 on: April 13, 2014, 12:22:38 AM »
This is the reason why freesaving and similar features need to be clearly marked as cheats.  Otherwise people will think that's the way the game is meant to be played and we'll get awful threads like this one and, worst of all, people will make more games that really are meant to be beaten through savescumming.

mushroom patch

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #172 on: April 13, 2014, 12:35:12 AM »
Indeed, but this does solve the case of the anti-roguelike fanatic. In fact, I find I even agree with him: It really would be tedious to play the same brogue seed over and over from the beginning until you beat it (if you don't have the skillz to beat it in under three tries).

So here's your homework, LazyCat, go play and beat a roguelike the right way -- from the beginning without using seeds to make it the same every playthrough and without dying -- then come back with your informed judgment.

Actually, I'm a little surprised this kind of monstrosity is allowed to stand in the roguelike world without being heaped with scorn. I bet lots of brogue players doing these weekly seed challenges play the seed over and over again from the beginning. This is abominable! I thought it sounded like a good idea at first, but it didn't occur to me that they would make a game of playing the same thing over and over like that.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 12:40:00 AM by mushroom patch »

LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #173 on: April 13, 2014, 01:15:24 AM »
Okay, I'm going to take this as confirmation that my scenario above is indeed what happened.

You don't even understand what you said. Go ahead, describe how do you imagine memorization is going to help.
 


mushroom patch

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #174 on: April 13, 2014, 01:47:29 AM »
Okay, I'm going to take this as confirmation that my scenario above is indeed what happened.

You don't even understand what you said. Go ahead, describe how do you imagine memorization is going to help.
 

Ah, yes, this old chestnut. "You don't even understand what you said yourself." lol

LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #175 on: April 13, 2014, 02:01:03 AM »
Indeed, but this does solve the case of the anti-roguelike fanatic. In fact, I find I even agree with him: It really would be tedious to play the same brogue seed over and over from the beginning until you beat it (if you don't have the skillz to beat it in under three tries).

Over and over from the beginning? You are playing the whole game all over from the beginning until you beat it, thousands of turns through the same easy difficulty for hundreds of times. I'm not playing all over from the beginning, I'm playing over only last few hundred turns, usually not more than once, where every different move makes the game different than before. And then I advance to harder difficulty and fresh/new content straight away. The only difference is you are wasting more time.
 

Quote
So here's your homework, LazyCat, go play and beat a roguelike the right way -- from the beginning without using seeds to make it the same every playthrough and without dying -- then come back with your informed judgment.

I did. I was talking about it before. It is you who never completed any roguelike without save-scumming. Admit it!


Quote
Actually, I'm a little surprised this kind of monstrosity is allowed to stand in the roguelike world without being heaped with scorn. I bet lots of brogue players doing these weekly seed challenges play the seed over and over again from the beginning. This is abominable! I thought it sounded like a good idea at first, but it didn't occur to me that they would make a game of playing the same thing over and over like that.

Are you again referring to save-scumming as "playing all over from the beginning"? What's wrong with you? Save summing is the opposite, it's to avoid playing all over from the beginning.

LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #176 on: April 13, 2014, 02:03:49 AM »
Ah, yes, this old chestnut. "You don't even understand what you said yourself." lol

Can you or can you not describe how memorization can help?

mushroom patch

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #177 on: April 13, 2014, 02:41:47 AM »
I could tell you, but I'm not sure I would understand myself if I did.

Also, regarding this:

Quote
So here's your homework, LazyCat, go play and beat a roguelike the right way -- from the beginning without using seeds to make it the same every playthrough and without dying -- then come back with your informed judgment.

I did. I was talking about it before. It is you who never completed any roguelike without save-scumming. Admit it!

I beat a roguelike two weeks ago without save-scumming and I'm about to do it again with another character (update: just won that game -- all hail King Jay, etc.). You should watch some people playing dcss webtiles. You can see people ascending all the time and you can be sure they didn't save scum. (Full disclosure: I've never beaten dcss. These days I'm playing a bit of angband -- I know, I know.)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:29:19 AM by mushroom patch »

Trystan

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #178 on: April 13, 2014, 02:43:27 AM »
You don't even understand what you said. Go ahead, describe how do you imagine memorization is going to help.

Not to add fuel to this retarded thread, but the ai in Pacman is entirely deterministic and based on your position. So it's possible to memorize paths through the maze that completely avoid them. Then play blindfolded. And win.

rust

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #179 on: April 13, 2014, 05:59:21 AM »
The only difference regarding game difficulty. -- Old school games that did not have save game are arcade games, purpose of which was to waste your time in order to get your coins. On the other hand the purpose of permadeath is to wastes your time in order to punish you, by wasting your time.

Right, because every single playthrough gives you exactly the same items and artifacts and monsters. I think you don't quite understand the concept of procedural generation, because you don't experience it often thanks to save scumming.