### Author Topic: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4)  (Read 53099 times)

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2014, 06:37:06 AM »
Do you have some equation for how that works?

To calculate the probability of a specific series of events, all you have to do is multiply the probability of each individual step in the series.

Every time you take a turn while sneaking, you have a 5% chance of being noticed and a 95% chance of not being noticed, right?  So the probability of not being noticed after two turns is just the probability of not being noticed after one turn (95%) multiplied by itself (so 95% times 95%).

95% is just another way of writing 0.95, and 0.95 * 0.95 = 0.9025, so the odds of not being noticed after two steps is 90.25%.

If you want to find out the odds of not being noticed after ten turns, it's 0.95 to the tenth power, or 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95, which is about 0.6, so that's a 60% chance of not being noticed after ten turns.

The same formula works for anything.  When flipping a coin, you have a 50% chance of getting heads.  The probability of getting heads twice in a row is 0.5 to the second power (0.5 * 0.5) which equals 25%.

You can combine totally unrelated things together and it still works.  If I flipped a coin and took two steps while sneaking, the probability of both getting heads and not being noticed is 0.5 * 0.95 * 0.95 = 0.45125, or 45.125%

Does this make sense?

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2014, 09:39:04 AM »
The equation is:

(Probability of first event) * (Probability of second event) * ... * (Probability of nth event)

#### LazyCat

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2014, 09:59:32 AM »
That sounds more like what I was experiencing in the game, which is why I was looking to increase those numbers. I see the key is to look at the odds of not being noticed instead. I guess it's because being noticed is a single event per multiple steps and not being noticed is a single event per one step, but I still find that difference pretty elusive.

#### Nikolai

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2014, 04:23:57 PM »
That sounds more like what I was experiencing in the game, which is why I was looking to increase those numbers. I see the key is to look at the odds of not being noticed instead. I guess it's because being noticed is a single event per multiple steps and not being noticed is a single event per one step, but I still find that difference pretty elusive.

You can think of it like flipping a coin twice, where flipping tails is "being noticed".

If you flip tails on the first flip, you're done.  That will happen half the time.

The only way to get noticed on your second flip is to flip "heads - tails".  That happens 1/4 of the time (half times half).

The only way not to get noticed at all is to flip "heads - heads".  If you think about it, the only way to avoid being detected in x turns is to flip heads x times.  The odds of that happening are (1/2)**x (one-half to the xth power).  The odds of being noticed, then, are one minus that number.

It takes a bit more care in keeping track of things when the odds of "being detected" are not equal to the odds of "slipping by successfully" for each turn, but the logic is identical.

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 07:50:50 AM »
For anyone who manages to get the Amulet in the full mod (latest release v9e), please post your save game from 26th floor.

I finally got that save file for you.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/huzvto

#### LazyCat

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 11:09:21 AM »
I finally got that save file for you.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/huzvto

Thanks. Unfortunately it goes out of sync on floor 8 on this computer. You used the latest version where it says "audio_v9e" in the bottom-right corner of the title screen, and it loads fine on your computer? I don't know how's that even possible. Is your Windows 64-bit maybe? I'm on Windows XP 32-bit.

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 11:29:34 AM »
Yeah, same version and it loads fine.  I'm on Windows 7 64 bit.

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2014, 11:36:11 AM »
There was a caged dragon in that game.  It was ridiculous.  He effortlessly won every fight from that point on.

#### LazyCat

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 12:11:01 PM »
Do you think this build makes the game easier?

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 01:53:52 AM »
Most of the changes favor the player, so yes.  I think the most extreme advantage is how much earlier you can use high-end weapons and armor thanks to wands of empowerment.

#### RiC David

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2014, 03:12:06 AM »
Hey Cat, could I make a request? I love your sound mod and love the new wait command but would really like a version that had this (and the mirror zapping if you wish because I can simply avoid using this) but not the sneaking or anything else that would potentially make the game easier (even if they're good ideas), especially the save scumming feature. I'll eventually play the game with these features but want to complete it without them first as mentioned before. Having the save states is far too tempting for me - it's really tough not to rationalise using them "just this once" after a stupid death but that destroys the essence of roguelike playing so I'd much rather be play without them; if there's an easy way to switch this off then that'd be great. Sneaking is completely unavoidable as one has to use the rest command to let the enemies walk past, at which point the benefits of sneaking are received and I want to be on an even keel with vanilla Brogue players right now.

I know I could play the version you included that only has the sound features/graphical tweaks but the wait command is such a good idea and every time my idiotic allies run right into certain death I can't help but be acutely aware that I could have told them to wait if I were playing your update.

If this would be time consuming and only for my benefit then that's fair enough but if you would it'd be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

#### LazyCat

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2014, 07:41:33 AM »
I don't think it's easier, just more balanced. Improved are only the things that were useless before, compared to rest. There are seeds with good items, and there are seeds with nothing really. I think I made easier only those seeds that were previously crap. I think the average difficulty stays about the same and only variation of difficulty shrunk among all the different seeds.

Until you have learned about all the enemies in the game and been to at least 26th floor I think permadeath serves no good purpose, it's kind of like playing chess without fully knowing the rules. I suggest you continue after dying until you at least beat the game once. And for that, it wouldn't hurt if you play the full-mod version first. I'm about to release the final build soon, so any bug-reports and feedback should come in the next few weeks, or otherwise it will be too late. I've played the game too much now, can't be bothered to make any other release, and I'm happy with how everything works.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 07:43:58 AM by LazyCat »

#### Vanguard

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2014, 01:37:14 PM »
Until you have learned about all the enemies in the game and been to at least 26th floor I think permadeath serves no good purpose, it's kind of like playing chess without fully knowing the rules.

Disagreedo.  The game gives you enough information for unspoiled wins to be plausible.  It doesn't have any big gotcha moments.  And Brogue is such a good game that it's still fun when you're getting slaughtered.

#### LazyCat

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2014, 04:15:15 PM »
Disagreedo.  The game gives you enough information for unspoiled wins to be plausible.  It doesn't have any big gotcha moments.
Plausible, but highly unlikely I'd say. Phantoms are gotcha moment, Krakens, Dragons, Liches, Pixies and Dar Battlemages, Spiders and Golems, and everything really is so different and unpredictable. Deadly too, if you are not prepared for any of them you can so easily die, and often in as little as five steps or less.

Quote
And Brogue is such a good game that it's still fun when you're getting slaughtered.
I agree there is some satisfaction in meeting monsters for the first time, in gradually discovering the game. It's just that it takes a lot of time, you could play and die so many times without learning nothing new even about the thing that killed you.

#### RiC David

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##### Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2014, 08:43:01 PM »
Disagreedo.  The game gives you enough information for unspoiled wins to be plausible.  It doesn't have any big gotcha moments.
Plausible, but highly unlikely I'd say. Phantoms are gotcha moment, Krakens, Dragons, Liches, Pixies and Dar Battlemages, Spiders and Golems, and everything really is so different and unpredictable. Deadly too, if you are not prepared for any of them you can so easily die, and often in as little as five steps or less.

Quote
And Brogue is such a good game that it's still fun when you're getting slaughtered.
I agree there is some satisfaction in meeting monsters for the first time, in gradually discovering the game. It's just that it takes a lot of time, you could play and die so many times without learning nothing new even about the thing that killed you.

I hope quoting within quotes isn't some sort of Inception level fau pas because I totally just went there (and I think you just birthed a new meme with 'Disagreedo', Vanguard...not sure how you'll feel about that but I'm running with it). I see our difference in philosophy, Cat; completing the game isn't a goal, expectation, or even real consideration of mine when I play. I'm gradually getting further (I believe floor 14 is my record) and that's how I like it, even if I don't echo the sentiment "dying is fun" (it's not fun, it's not even enjoyable or welcome, but it's necessary and has value - to me at least; it can be funny and I wouldn't have it any other way but fun isn't the word). I also don't feel any sense of lack if I don't learn anything new or necesarily improve my future chances of success, the experience of pitting myself against the overwhelming odds is my end game.

I appreciate your perspective but Brogue wouldn't be Brogue to me if I could keep restarting upon failure and so while I'm aware I could manually save scum anyway (but never would), having it be the default operation is something I really dislike and it would surprise me if I was in the minority on this.

Let's avoid talk of reduced difficulty altogether: is there any way of disabling the sneak functions that you've added? If not, would you consider releasing an additional version without them?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 08:59:15 PM by RiC David »