Author Topic: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.  (Read 30953 times)

TheCreator

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Fame
    • Email
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 08:22:48 AM »
So really most agree (a) procedural content + (B)perma-death + (C)(some sense of rogue influence) = roguelike.

In the old days the definition of RL used to be something like "An RPG game with poor graphics (compared to mainstream games), but much more complex mechanics and richer content". As you can see, no single word about procedural generation or permadeath. This excludes games like Diablo. In those days no one would ever consider Diablo as RL. What is more, Diablo was often used as an example what is NOT a roguelike. No one was insane enough to say that the game is like Rogue just because it has procedurally generated levels. Claims like that make me laugh.

The above definition also excludes platform games and similar stuff. Some people think that the term "roguelike" has evolved in years. I think it just has became degenerated.
Fame (Untitled) - my game. Everything is a roguelike.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2013, 08:34:06 AM »
My stance on the issue is that ADOM, Brogue, and Crawl are clearly the same kind of thing, and Spelunky and Diablo are clearly different kinds of things, despite some similarities.  The only word we have that properly describes those first games is "roguelike."  If we extend its meaning to include Diablo et al. then we don't have a good word for that anymore.

It isn't an elitist thing about how Spelunky isn't a real roguelike.  "Roguelike" is just a more useful term when it describes something concrete and specific.

Somewhat related, I'd also like to see the concept of permadeath/permafailure separated from the roguelike genre, not because roguelikes don't need it, but because it has so much potential to benefit other types of games.  Most competitive multiplayer games essentially feature permafailure, though it isn't referred to by that name.  Lots of arcade games are secretly meant to be played as permadeath games.  It's a great feature with incredible benefits and exaggerated weaknesses.  It should be something every designer considers for their projects, not an exotic, niche thing that only appeals to weird people.

King Ink

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Jakob Virgil
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 02:29:11 PM »
So really most agree (a) procedural content + (B)perma-death + (C)(some sense of rogue influence) = roguelike.

In the old days the definition of RL used to be something like "An RPG game with poor graphics (compared to mainstream games), but much more complex mechanics and richer content". As you can see, no single word about procedural generation or permadeath. This excludes games like Diablo. In those days no one would ever consider Diablo as RL. What is more, Diablo was often used as an example what is NOT a roguelike. No one was insane enough to say that the game is like Rogue just because it has procedurally generated levels. Claims like that make me laugh.

The above definition also excludes platform games and similar stuff. Some people think that the term "roguelike" has evolved in years. I think it just has became degenerated.
My old Larn-playing heart beats in time with your statement.
If I had my druthers and could dictate what rogue-like meant I would include acsii based to the list.
but what a word means is unfortunately how it used not what it should mean.   

Samildanach

  • 7DRL Reviewer
  • Rogueliker
  • *
  • Posts: 453
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • The Indie Ocean
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 04:52:12 PM »
Genres do evolve. First person shooters are no longer required to be like Doom. Insisting that a roguelike must have ASCII visuals is like insisting that a first person shooter shouldn't include the ability to look up and down because Doom didn't have that. It's nonsense, and a pointlessly stifling and elitist attitude that benefits neither the games nor the people who play them.

King Ink

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Jakob Virgil
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 05:46:26 PM »
Genres do evolve. First person shooters are no longer required to be like Doom. Insisting that a roguelike must have ASCII visuals is like insisting that a first person shooter shouldn't include the ability to look up and down because Doom didn't have that. It's nonsense, and a pointlessly stifling and elitist attitude that benefits neither the games nor the people who play them.

genres evolve? If rogue-style games are seen as form rather than a genre.
The ASCII requirement would be more like the rhyming requirements of limericks.
But like I said we can not control lexical degradation we can only grouse about it.

but let us grouse it is one of the only joys left to old men.

TheCreator

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Fame
    • Email
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2013, 12:16:03 PM »
Genres do evolve. First person shooters are no longer required to be like Doom. Insisting that a roguelike must have ASCII visuals is like insisting that a first person shooter shouldn't include the ability to look up and down because Doom didn't have that. It's nonsense, and a pointlessly stifling and elitist attitude that benefits neither the games nor the people who play them.

What would you say if someone called Ishar a first person shooter, just because it's first person and you can shoot at your enemies? FPS with more flexible camera is still an FPS, but when your objective is talking, trading, puzzle solving AND fighting instead of just fighting, then it's probably not an FPS. So I wouldn't go as far as claiming that a roguelike without ASCII mode is not a roguelike. However, a real-time game with 3D graphics, audio and only five character classes is NOT a roguelike, it's fucking Diablo 3.

Fame (Untitled) - my game. Everything is a roguelike.

Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2013, 01:08:26 PM »
ASCII is a silly requirement.  It has nothing to do with a game's mechanics.  Developers can and do make RLs that support both ASCII and tiles and the game plays exactly the same either way.

That's like saying that an FPS is only a real FPS if it's 90% grey and brown.  It's really dumb.

King Ink

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Jakob Virgil
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2013, 06:50:29 PM »
ASCII is a silly requirement.  It has nothing to do with a game's mechanics.  Developers can and do make RLs that support both ASCII and tiles and the game plays exactly the same either way.

That's like saying that an FPS is only a real FPS if it's 90% grey and brown.  It's really dumb.

unfortunately the genie is already out of the bottle on the Ascii requirement.
But when I get the tardis fixed y'all are screwed. 

Rickton

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Weirdfellows
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2013, 07:08:28 PM »
I would think that of all people, roguelike players/developers would care the least about graphics.
Claiming that ASCII is a requirement to be a roguelike is putting a huge amount of focus on graphics (or lack thereof).
Creator of the 7DRL Possession: Escape from the Nether Regions
And its sequel, simply titled Possession

guest509

  • Guest
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2013, 09:42:18 AM »
ASCII is definitely not a requirement. That's kinda silly.

I love me some ASCII though, gotta say.

Samildanach

  • 7DRL Reviewer
  • Rogueliker
  • *
  • Posts: 453
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • The Indie Ocean
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2013, 12:27:07 AM »
Genres do evolve. First person shooters are no longer required to be like Doom. Insisting that a roguelike must have ASCII visuals is like insisting that a first person shooter shouldn't include the ability to look up and down because Doom didn't have that. It's nonsense, and a pointlessly stifling and elitist attitude that benefits neither the games nor the people who play them.

genres evolve? If rogue-style games are seen as form rather than a genre.
The ASCII requirement would be more like the rhyming requirements of limericks.
Without rhyme, a limerick doesn't function. It's impossible. A roguelike without ASCII just looks different. I'd say it's more analogous to a limerick in a different font.

However, a real-time game with 3D graphics, audio and only five character classes is NOT a roguelike, it's fucking Diablo 3.
Care to point out where I mentioned Diablo 3? Diablo 3 is beside the point. The point is that "this game isn't like roguelikes from 20 years ago, therefore it isn't a roguelike" is an absurd stance. It's particularly bizarre from someone named TheCreator. Creation without invention or pushing the boundaries is just tediously retreading the same dull old ground.

guest509

  • Guest
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2013, 07:33:54 AM »
Where are we, page 2?

Yeah, that's about the point where 'what is a roguelike' discussions tend to fade a bit.


Vanguard

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 1112
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2013, 01:34:27 PM »
Those first five are turn-based tactical adventure games with heavily randomized content and no persistent saves.

The last three are not.

NON

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Infra Arcana
    • Email
Re: What trait disqualifies a game from being a rogue-like.
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 02:59:22 PM »
Those first five are turn-based tactical adventure games with heavily randomized content and no persistent saves.

The last three are not.
Yes.

But I would also like to include something about style. For me, primitive graphics in favor of deep gameplay is one of the fundamental things I associate with roguelikes. If I see too advanced graphics, it just makes me think "I wish that effort were put in the gameplay instead". Almost total focus on the programming aspects of the game design is a huge part of the appeal of roguelikes for me.

I have even been thinking lately about making a completely text based game.
Happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes.