Losing interest in roguelikes

[Vanguard]

Ah, yeah... right. So then Elig meant static levels with random enemy placement or something else randomized? Or multiplayer in fixed arenas? Because it didn't sound like that actually. Sounded more like the "everything handcrafted single-player experience" approach, which tends to be very puzzle-ish.

Random enemy placement, randomized AI behavior, random items, and random combat results among other possibilities could allow a roguelike to use static levels without becoming a puzzle that can be solved on the first turn.

Even games with no randomized elements aren't necessarily puzzles.  Super Mario Bros. is an action game.  The variation between playthroughs comes from different player inputs, even unintentionally different inputs.  And it is designed to be replayed.

[Nachtfischer]

Random enemy placement, randomized AI behavior, random items, and random combat results among other possibilities could allow a roguelike to use static levels without becoming a puzzle that can be solved on the first turn.

Even games with no randomized elements aren't necessarily puzzles.  Super Mario Bros. is an action game.  The variation between playthroughs comes from different player inputs, even unintentionally different inputs.  And it is designed to be replayed.

Your first point: Absolutely. That's just what I said.

Second point: Each time you replay the "thing", though, it becomes more and more a matter of memorization and quickly degrades into an execution puzzle. The fact that you probably cannot execute the (physical!) commands perfectly does not make it a game (it actually becomes more of a pure contest if you make it ABOUT the execution... see speedrunning). It's definitely not about making decisions anymore. So, maybe it is a game-like system on the first playthrough(s). But a game would be designed to STAY a game, ideally forever...

[Nachtfischer]

Accidental double post, sorry.

[Vanguard]

Each time you replay the "thing", though, it becomes more and more a matter of memorization and quickly degrades into an execution puzzle.

You're using strange definitions for "puzzle" and "game."

[Darren Grey]

Oh look, definition arguments, yay

[Nachtfischer]

Oh look, definition arguments, yay

You're right, Darren. These things are for another topic (or PM if you're interested, Vanguard).

To get this thread back on track, what I actually just wanted to say was, that the two things the OP said he dislikes (randomization, permadeath) are to me the major draws of roguelikes. And I am incredibly thankful that the genre kind of introduced me to the importance and intricacies of these concepts, and thereby opened the door to a whole new world of gaming (mainly board games) that has become a far more important part of my life than just a pastime.

So, BTT.

[ekolis]

Yeah, and as I said earlier, those are actually what drew me to roguelikes in the first place, too. I guess I just got tired of those mechanics and want to take a break for a while... and then I wound up playing FTL anyway

Maybe there's actually something else about roguelikes I'm getting tired of? Perhaps the typical generic fantasy setting? Except I don't even think I could be convinced to try a sci-fi or whatever roguelike; it would feel the same as all the other ones, just with a different coat of paint slapped on...

[Eben]

Maybe there's actually something else about roguelikes I'm getting tired of? Perhaps the typical generic fantasy setting? Except I don't even think I could be convinced to try a sci-fi or whatever roguelike; it would feel the same as all the other ones, just with a different coat of paint slapped on...

Maybe the lack of music and/or sound fx.

I've been trying out a lot of roguelikes on my android and realize how much I miss sounds now that I'm used to them! Even nice graphical games seem so hollow now without them.

[Krice]

I also have started to think that even (un)Nethack is boring. The reason can be that after many years of playing they also start to become too static in a way that there is nothing new or surprising. I have some ideas about new gameplay mechanics in my own games and I think that kind of stuff is important and not just remaking a classic roguelike again. In a way such a complex game than Nethack is too concentrated only to fighting monsters.

[guest509]

I think it may be a bit unrealistic to enjoy a game at a high level indefinitely.

[Krice]

Maybe, but it's kind of surprising how I see Nethack now. I don't know, maybe it's just the fact that the last real update is from 1995 or something.