7DRL: after-challenge upgrades?

[Geminosity]

I'm noticing a few people posting after-challenge versions of their games. While I can see why people would want to patch any game-breaking bugs I'm also noticing some gameplay changes and rebalancing and whatnot and was kinda tilting my head in curiosity.

I get that people are working on their 7d RLs after the fact, I am too, but I'm just curious if 'versioning' the actual 7 day entries with new gameplay features doesn't go against the spirit of the competition. In my case I'm making a new game or spiritual sequel i guess to build on what I got from Nya's Quest so it's clearly seperate but I'm now wondering if I shouldn't have put some of these tech changes and whatnot back in the old game

What's people's thoughts on this kind of thing? I'm not really about to complain but it just kinda got me pondering where it all lies in the grand scheme of things :3

[kraflab]

Various 7drl's go on to see long-term development.  In terms of the spirit of the competition as you put it, I agree that it takes away from the idea of a self-contained experiment made in 7 days.  In terms of having more and better roguelikes, I think it's great

I'm definitely against people that go in with the intention of making a big game and just calling whatever is done after a week their 7drl.  It shouldn't be just a subset of the real game.

[guest509]

Hey Gem!

What I did was still have my 7 day version up, but I have 'post contest' version as well. What happens is that during the contest you can't get a lot of play testing. Afterward you get tons of feedback and can't help but go back and do some tweeks.

For me though, that's it. Unless a friend requests something specific and easy I'll not revisit this project.

Some people use the 7DRL as a launching pad for more major projects, but it's more rare than you realize. I think DoomRL did this. Can't think of another really. Maybe one of Slashie's games, Expedition?

As to the question of the challenge and judging, I am of the opinion that we should probably judge what was released, and MAYBE allow a bug fix version if there were some major problems. Like Black Mage this year had a major flicker issue on most machines and that has since been fixed. I have no problem with that.

In reality I think we end up being super lenient about stuff. I very much hope people play my tweaked KlingonRL, the 7DRL version has frustrating difficulty spikes. It took me less than 5 minutes to tweak the appropriate numbers, but still it was days after the contest was over. I'm comfortable being judged on either version really, since there's not much at stake.

[Eben]

Generally the 7dRL version should remain available for all to see (and clearly marked), but it's okay if a newer version is also available.

Often when reviewing a game it's appropriate to play both, which can give an idea of what was actually accomplished in challenge and what the current game is actually like. This is helped a lot by developers posting good change logs

As far as just playing the games, always go for the newest version, just like any other game.

I still tinker with some of my old 7dRLs based on user feedback. Sometimes it's nice to pop in and change up a couple small things without it having to turn into a big project or upgrade.

[Darren Grey]

Well the idea should be that you complete your vision in 7 days.  However minor bugfix and balance updates after the competition are sometimes mandatory - it's can simply be impossible to find every bug in a complex game, and getting balance perfect requires wider playtesting.  Of course if you choose an appropriate scope then this isn't so much of a problem!

As for major content upgrades, usually this happens because the developer hasn't really finished their game. Alas, out of hubris they declared it a success anyway.  We get a lot of @ on a maps each year, or things that look cool but have no content.

Developers turning a 7DRL into a bigger project is rare, and usually a sign that the developer isn't very good at keeping their scope down (Kornel and Slash being prime examples!)  It goes against the spirit of the challenge somewhat, which is to complete something finished and polished instead of getting stuck in the endless update cycle, but ah well, good things can come of it, and the dev can do what they want 

For my own game Mosaic I've made a bunch of tweaks that most players probably won't notice. Some were issues I found after release, some were requests from certain dedicated players. If someone gives you their time on the game and asks for a change I feel obliged to consider it! I do have some ideas now for further expansion, but that might not happen.  I find it hard to work properly outside of the 7DRL week...

[guest509]

  Yeah isn't that just crazy Darren? I have been in the challenge 4 times and that's also the number of games I've completed, though I did do a major overhaul of Cardlike. And even that overhaul was only completed so that I had the project out of the way before I started last year's 7DRL.

  Something about the deadline just forces you to step up and finish.

[Geminosity]

Fair enough, I'm not judging anyone. I was just curious because the contest had kind of pushed the idea that 7drls should really aim to be finished in the 7 days so I was a lil' confuzzled when all the patches started turning up after :3

As for my Nya projects, I came in with the fact i was new to this very much in mind so my modest scope panned out nicely. Only things I changed were 1 of the enemy types and I dropped FoV. I could have added more levels pretty easy but without playtesting I wasn't sure how far i could take the limited content so that's why it's only 4 floors deep.
Afterwards though I decided that I'd enjoyed the process so much I'd like to make an expanded version people could get a bit more play out of, plus i wanted to see if I could make the game run more efficiently... hence the start of "Nya's Yarn"   If, after Nya's Yarn, I'm still feeling it and people seem to enjoy it then I have plans for 'Nya Mix' but Yarn comes first. I'm just taking it one iteration at a time :3

[Eben]

Fair enough, I'm not judging anyone. I was just curious because the contest had kind of pushed the idea that 7drls should really aim to be finished in the 7 days so I was a lil' confuzzled when all the patches started turning up after :3

It's important to note that the 7dRL is a Challenge and not a contest. The implication being primarily that it would be awesome to get completely done, bug-free, and polished in 7 days but failing to do so isn't the same as losing!

[guest509]

  The beauty of the contest is that it forces you to finish. To top the endless dev cycle.

  I try, very hard, to limit myself to just one post contest play test patch.

  My coding time will be spent on the next project. Or more likely writing ream after ream of design ideas for my next 7DRL. I'm already at 5 pages. :-)

[Geminosity]

It's important to note that the 7dRL is a Challenge and not a contest. The implication being primarily that it would be awesome to get completely done, bug-free, and polished in 7 days but failing to do so isn't the same as losing!

Agreed :3  To be honest I kind of hope people don't get too caught up on the succeed/fail aspect of it as merely taking part is the most important thing. I think I posted it in one of the 7drl.org posts but I'm a big believer in the message behind roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" speech: it's better to do things, win or lose than to sit back and never get involved

[roocey]

Generally the 7dRL version should remain available for all to see (and clearly marked), but it's okay if a newer version is also available.

This is what I'm doing. When the 7DRL week neared its end, I decided I wanted to expand on Dead Man Walking a bit more. However, the true 7DRL version and source will be available for now and into the foreseeable future.