Fame Feedback Thread

[getter77]

I'm thinking UglyTroll gets the original notion from when it was raised a bit back and just responded a bit tongue-in-cheek folks, a bit of levity.

I half expect this chapter of it all to be translated into a referential crafting mini-quest in some future update.

[TheCreator]

This is not hypocrisy, just some random thoughts . Of course it's not a problem to switch to tarballs, if you really miss them so much. I don't. I also think that using any Linux distribution without knowing a thing about file permissions is next to impossible. But nevertheless the oncoming version of Untitled (or how it will be called) will be stored in tar.gz. Lesson learned.

(By the way Michał, where is your patriotism? One Polish game is going to conquer the world and you are refusing to play it just because the file format is not your favorite one? )

I half expect this chapter of it all to be translated into a referential crafting mini-quest in some future update.

Why not .

[AgingMinotaur]

Of course it's not a problem to switch to tarballs, if you really miss them so much. I don't.

Huh? What do you have against tarballs? Universally used by Linux distros, robust, fast, and easy to use (in a terminal, if you're so inclined, or with some GUI application). Personally, I loves me a tarball.

On a side note, it would be an interesting experiment to offer up a game as .deb and .rpm, and see how many downloads one gets.

I also think that using any Linux distribution without knowing a thing about file permissions is next to impossible.

Really? Are you, like, still running Yggdrasil, but insisting on unrar as the standard? Lots of people use Linux, who have no interest whatsoever in the techincalities. They're not visibile to the geek community, since these are the kind of users who don't visit forums. I have dozens of friends in this category. They wouldn't know a tarball if they saw one, but would expect your software to work if the download is labelled "for Linux".

As always,
Minotauros

[Ancient]

Yes, me loves tarballs. With gzip/bzip2/xz on top of it please. Pretty please?

I would like Untitled to reach wider audiences which is why I complain about seemingly unimportant details. Rest assured that I will aid Untitled on its march to glory with feedback. Maybe even write a review if I get good at the game.

[TheCreator]

Lots of people use Linux, who have no interest whatsoever in the techincalities. They're not visibile to the geek community, since these are the kind of users who don't visit forums. I have dozens of friends in this category. They wouldn't know a tarball if they saw one, but would expect your software to work if the download is labelled "for Linux".

Either that Linux is called 'Windows' or you come from another planet or you're just not telling the truth. Well, I can imagine a user like that anyway. Assuming that the user gets every program they need installed and working, and that no program will ever break, and that actually the only program they need is a browser, then yes, I think such a user will not need any technical knowledge at all.

[Ancient]

How Windows users get along with no technical knowledge at all then? Linux users act the same way. Some distributions go great lengths to become user-friendly and actually have some success at that. Yes, stuff will break. Usually reinstalling a program (which is trivial in distros with graphical package managers) solves a problem.

[Darren Grey]

I am one such user, and frequently get frustrated trying to get things to work on my Linux netbook.  Many many developers seem to assume that Linux users are tenacious bastards that will crawl through shit to get a simple program running.  I am not one such bastard 

[TheCreator]

Well, some distributions indeed try very hard to be user friendly. They have nice semi-transparent windows, desktops with wallpapers and icons and so on. But whenever you try to accomplish something, anything, you end up browsing some geek forums, typing some mysterious commands in a console window, finding out that these commands do not work, looking for another set of commands... Sorry, but this is how it actually works. Linux is still powered by console, even if it is nowadays covered by a nice shiny desktop wallpaper.

But hey, we have just started another flame war. Even if I don't believe in existence of non-technical Linux users, I don't want to make life more complicated for people who download Linux version of my game, so let's change the topic. Are there any other Linux issues I was not aware of, apart from archive format and file permissions?

[Z]

IME, both in Windows and Linux, when you don't know how to do something, you go to Google and look for an answer. In Windows the answer is usually a sequence of 20 mouse clicks, and in Linux, the answer is usually a command. I don't think that lots of technical knowledge is required here, since there is no need to understand the command, and after some times, I suppose they would enjoy the conciseness of the solution.

Anyway, this happens when you want to do something special. Technical people like to tweak the system, and that's why they run into more difficult things. A typical non-technical user would just do common typical things, which work in a newbie friendly way.
 

[AgingMinotaur]

Hee, hee. The far away planet I live on, is Berlin, where you actually see Linux (Ubuntu in particular) being used quite alot, especially by leftwingers of different shapes and sizes. I guess this is still a slightly weird city. And I might add that any other place I've been, most people never even heard of Linux.

As always,
Minotauros

[Ancient]

Had a more serious go at Untitled lately. I wish the ability to shift-click items to specify amount in trade window was also specified somewhere in the game. So far I found that piece of information in manual but it does not seem to be accessible anywhere else.

I found Untitled to crash at me several times. Most cases were quest related. Some examples:

• I forgot to get the cheese delivery and entered mine site. Crash.
• Recovering the book with no title gives you appropriate line at the blacksmith. If you have not talked to basement owner about the book first asking blacksmith for reward crashes Untitled.
• Received a cannot find up portal on entering dungeon near to village when forgot to take up alchemist quest.
• After bringing froghead corpse to the miner I was at 0% energy but well fed. Choosing to sleep at that point crashed the game and produced some kind of dump suggesting I send it to you. However, it sounded like it was message from vendor of some library you use so I am not sure you want it. Oh, the dump was placed in some strange user configuration directory. Had to run find file to find the dump.

Somewhat weird is case of sign reading. The information that you have troubles reading goes to the log but if you can read a pop up window with sign content appears. Things like sign writings could be placed directly in the log.
Also, the game seems to ignore whatever age I set for character and always save it as default 25 years.

I have ventured to 25th level of dungeon near three ingots. It is a version of infinite dungeon?

[TheCreator]

Thanks Ancient, I did not expect so many crashes to exist . I guess that's because of very little time devoted to testing. It was also very unwise for me to crash the game after some unexpected circumstances occur - I could just display some warning message and continue. That would encourage scumming, but it's still better than crashing.

The dugeon you have wandered into is not infinite. There are 100 levels. Congratulations on making it to the 25th .

[Ancient]

Well, I sure learned to save often. Black mambas working together wasted me that time.

Untitled seems to be very much ADOM-themed. The spiders laying webs on the fly, plethora of quests, wilderness map and the bugs (yeah, that too) remind me of it. Quarrels as ammunition for crossbow are also specific to ADOM or games inspired by it. I haven't seen any roguelike not influenced by Thomas Biskup's game featuring quarrels. It is bolts for all others. Also you encounter "a lone wizard/necromancer" is copied phrase. That said I'm enjoying Untitled's theme. Such a fine game badly needs a title to complement its world.

Oh, in the manual you wrote I should upgrade my hardware. Well, I agree. :-)

More crash situations:

• If you read fireball scroll and click somewhere not on a map (I clicked empty spell slot by mistake) leads to crash with message that fireball is not supposed to search for targets.
• Sometimes just wandering around random wilderness has Untitled check for CitizeM and die without apparent reason. Hard to avoid.

My error.log file has grown to 9KB now. Most are CitizenM.u file checks. That bug is interrupting the game quite often. Here is error message for each distinct situation triggering crashes:


Details: Spell 'Fireball' is not intended to look for a target.
Source file: Spells.cpp
Function: CSpell::FindTarget
Line: 784

Details: Portal not found: up
Source file: World.cpp
Function: CWorld::ReadyLoc
Line: 399

Details: Quest 'q_book_no_name' not found.
Source file: Gameplay.cpp
Function: CGameplayInterface::EndQuest
Line: 91

Details: Script file not found - Data/Scripts/CitizenM.u
Source file: Loc.cpp
Function: CLoc::AddNPC
Line: 1926


There is possibility to easily obtain unlimited gold. Here is how (order of steps is very important):

1. Enter trade with person with gold.
2. Put up two items for trade. One has to be something the trader will buy but the other needs to be something he will reject.
3. Click sell button.
4. Remove item the trader rejected from your bargain side.
5. Remove gold from trader's bargain side by right-clicking it.
6. While trader has gold: click sell button. Each time worth of your item trader is interested in will be subtracted from his gold and given to you but the item you placed on sale will stay there.

For example switching steps 4 and 5 means the trade goes correctly. Discovered this by mistake when trying to figure out what the trader will buy by offering items in bulk. I bought the necro evil book for scummed gold but it does not seem to be wanted by anyone anywhere.

Some more issues:

• When you hold L for look you can only move the cursor using arrow keys, numpad is ignored. That came as a surprise because hero can be controlled using numpad.
• Entering the alchemist dungeon draws whole map to terminal. Is that intended?
• Terminal is spammed with region name not found or some such when look command is used.

Here is a small feature request. Let shift-click (or ctrl, or alt) on ground item when at inventory window try to stuff it into your backpack. Try merging of course. Maybe while the modifier key is held give background to items? Blue: you have free space in backpack or this item can merge with some stack you have. Red: cannot fit this one due to weight or space issues.

Another useful addition would be reporting full mass of stacks. Right now for a bundle of seven javelins status line says:

Javelin (3-11) 18/20 Weight:2

It would be a bit more helpful if it read:

Javelin (3-11) 18/20 Weight:2 Total weight: 14

Total weight can (and perhaps should) be skipped if the item is a single thing. I had those seven javelins and wondered why it would not let me pack them up. Turned out I needed fourteen free weight points, not merely two. Also for arrows it would help immersion if you said "Weight: negligible" instead of "Weight: 0". If something has negligible individual weight (arrows) skip total weight naturally.

Make talk command used in presence of hostile humanoids say they are more interested in killing the player instead of pretending there is nobody to talk to.

I will wait for the crash bugs to get fixed. Meanwhile the 100-level dungeon should keep me entertained. At least this place does not crash and gives good old hack 'n' slash roguelike style fun.

[TheCreator]

Choosing to sleep at that point crashed the game and produced some kind of dump suggesting I send it to you. However, it sounded like it was message from vendor of some library you use so I am not sure you want it. Oh, the dump was placed in some strange user configuration directory. Had to run find file to find the dump.

Actually it's not from an external library and I do want such dumps, especially if I cannot reproduce a fault myself. I think I should make it more clear in the message as you are right in that it resembles standard Windows crash messages too much.

Untitled seems to be very much ADOM-themed. The spiders laying webs on the fly, plethora of quests, wilderness map and the bugs (yeah, that too) remind me of it. Quarrels as ammunition for crossbow are also specific to ADOM or games inspired by it. I haven't seen any roguelike not influenced by Thomas Biskup's game featuring quarrels. It is bolts for all others. Also you encounter "a lone wizard/necromancer" is copied phrase.

I never tried to hide what was my primary source of inspiration . Used to play ADOM in the late 90's, when it wasn't completed yet, but it was already a shining star in the roguelike world. I discovered the genre in 1998, having read a large article about it in a gaming magazine. Never really liked Angband or Nethack, but fell in love with ADOM from the first sight. I didn't want to copy entire phrases, but couldn't resist the temptation in case of the "lone wizard" . Let's treat it like a tribute to ADOM.

The bug with trading is very interesting. It seems to be present in the game since several years and I was aware of it, but never managed to reproduce it. I guess I owe you a lot of beer for the list of reproduction steps .

Much thanks for the other reported bugs, as well as for all the suggestions. I'll try to implement them all. It's going to be a nice day full of programming .

[TheCreator]

1. Enter trade with person with gold.
2. Put up two items for trade. One has to be something the trader will buy but the other needs to be something he will reject.
3. Click sell button.
4. Remove item the trader rejected from your bargain side.
5. Remove gold from trader's bargain side by right-clicking it.
6. While trader has gold: click sell button. Each time worth of your item trader is interested in will be subtracted from his gold and given to you but the item you placed on sale will stay there.

That was a very subtle bug. Even that you have provided such a detailed list of steps, I wasn't able to reproduce it for more than hour. I finally figured out that the rejected item must precede the other item at the player's bargain side. Which led me to the conclusion that reproduction could actually be simplier: you should just have an empty slot followed by an item - no need for putting an item that would be rejected, no need to remove gold. And the solution was to replace some 'break' with 'continue' in the code.

Too bad I wasn't able to reproduce some of the other bugs:

1. I forgot to get the cheese delivery and entered mine site. Crash.
2. Received a cannot find up portal on entering dungeon near to village when forgot to take up alchemist quest.
3. After bringing froghead corpse to the miner I was at 0% energy but well fed. Choosing to sleep at that point crashed the game

I hope that you still have the dump . For bugs like 1 and 2 the current version of the game doesn't offer generating a dump, so they might turn out to be extremely tricky to fix unless you know a quick way to reproduce them.