Randomized Object Stats, Randomized Quests?

[guest509]

  So randomly generated spaces and object placement is par for the course. I was wondering if there are any good discussions or examples of randomly created objects. Like items and monsters.

  Random realms does a good job at creating randomized creatures with crazy names. It works only because the monsters are described in between levels. Anyone out there creating random objects that are, maybe, described by their name? +1 Lighting Staff? Ferocious Acid Gnome?

  Does Slimy Lich Mummy do this?

  Is this an old discussion done better somewhere else?
  Can randomized stats in a randomized environment be just too much chaos? Too boring? Stupid?

  I know WoW has some low level items that have randomized characteristics. Bracers of the Bear, Gloves of the Owl and what not.

  The game FATE creates a randomized boss to fight at a random depth. The quests are random as well, mostly "kill x # of y" and "kill x miniboss monster and collect his y". Some of the items seem to have randomized stats, fully visible when you pick the item up. I think it's just random enchants. Seems to make the game interesting in a way.

 

[Pueo]

I'm not sure about random monsters, but I'd guess it's generally the same as random items.  

If I were to go the random item route (which I don't think I am), I would do it much the same way as the random name generators that hide the true nature of potions and such do.  Pick a adjective/noun, a item type, maybe a +x or -x, and an effect (probably best to match the adjective/noun and item type with the effect), and put it in the level.

With this, you get things such as "+1 Heated Mail," which protects you from coldness, or "-2 Lightning Rod," which shoots lightning, or even "+3 Shining Sword," which deals extra damage against undead, or many others.


Also, since your title mentioned random quests, you could look at this:
http://roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=2232.0

[guest509]

  Yeah I checked that out. I responded as well. It seemed to be more about random narrative that really missions or quests.

  I'm thinking of something simple, not a story, just a goal. As in, "Kill X" or "Find X". Many roguelikes have a goal and theme but no real narrative. Like Nethack. Find Amulet in this wacky dungeon. That's the entire story from what I can tell, and I like it.

[Pueo]

  Yeah I checked that out. I responded as well. It seemed to be more about random narrative that really missions or quests.

  I'm thinking of something simple, not a story, just a goal. As in, "Kill X" or "Find X". Many roguelikes have a goal and theme but no real narrative. Like Nethack. Find Amulet in this wacky dungeon. That's the entire story from what I can tell, and I like it.

Well, if it's just something simple, you can do it the same as random items and monsters.  "Kill X" (or "Kill X Amount of Y's") is easy; just choose a random monster and (optionally) a random number for you to kill.  Same with "Find X" or "Find X Amount of Y's."

[Krice]

Many roguelikes have a goal and theme but no real narrative.

That's the point. Anything more specific makes the game feel more like an adventure game or RPG (which I guess are kind of adventure games with character development). The question of randomness is really wide and interesting. Most roguelikes are quite static and not that random at all, they always happen in the same place, contain more or less same objects and monsters (in superficially random order).

[guest509]

  Agreed, on both.

[Krice]

How to create random content which is also interesting and meaningful? It's the holy grail of roguelike development. If it's too static it has no surprises (like Nethack's way of creating levels), but if it's too random you get silly items like +1 holy steel bread. There are areas that haven't been explored, one of them is the structure of the game world.

[Holsety]

  So randomly generated spaces and object placement is par for the course. I was wondering if there are any good discussions or examples of randomly created objects. Like items and monsters.

[...]
  Does Slimy Lich Mummy do this?

  Is this an old discussion done better somewhere else?
  Can randomized stats in a randomized environment be just too much chaos? Too boring? Stupid?
[...]

The Slimy Lichmummy has a 'regular' pool of predefined monsters and items. The randomization comes from map layout, potion/scroll identity and enhancement pods. It's pretty orthodox in its roguelikeness 

I don't think there's a roguelike that does random items in the way that Diablo does it (I'm going to base any further opinions/conjecture off Diablo 2 since that's the one I'm most familiar with), but that's not REALLY super random either.
Mostly it's tiered as such;
-"normal" items with a random quality modifier
-magical items with between 1 or 2 random, item-appropriate bonuses (think enhanced damage/defense/repairs durability over time/+X to [CLASS] Skills)
-rare items with 2 to 6 random, item-appropriate bonuses
-unique items with... as many bonuses as said unique has, though the exact numbers of the bonuses DO vary if the same unique drops twice (Don't overthink it  )

Disregarding crafted items and set items which confer bonuses according to how many items of the same set you're currently wearing (since those are pretty static).

I don't think that diablo's item randomization system would work very well in a roguelike without a stern look at how things are identified; identify scrolls cost very little, are readily available, you have a free ticket back to town (and then BACK to the dungeon) every time you pick up a town portal scroll which costs just as little AND there's an NPC who will identify EVERYTHING you're carrying free of charge.
Past the first hour of the game you'll be disregarding anything that isn't rare or better...
You'll be happily swapping out your current equipment for one of three things;
A rare that has better modifiers/bonuses than the one you have, an unique that gives you what you want OR a runeword that you've crafted (basically putting rare items into a weapon in a specific order to create a very non-random, predetermined bunch of modifiers).
Usually players will just take any good rare/unique, but the "endgame" is assembling full runewords for all your equipment. What this means is that players have a clear vision of what items they want for endgame, and they KNOW they can get them.

Which kind of renders everything below runewords... somewhat pointless, no?
You can have all the randomness you want, but players will probably choose the static top-tier item over endlessly searching for the perfect set of random bonuses. Not aided by the fact that runeword modifiers far overpower anything you'll ever find on a randomly generated item.

Of course the great fun of Diablo 2 is bringing all the rares/uniques back and comparing them with what you already have in your quest to grow stronger and stronger, but the need to identify things is really an afterthought. A small measure of tedium to make you choose WHAT to bring back to ID and then sell/use, whether it's worth your time to make multiple trips back and forth to ID everything (it's not.)...

For a roguelike (finally getting back on track...) you'd pretty much have to make everything ID'd in advance (at least as far as the weapons are concerned).
And then choose HOW random you'd like to make the items....

Chances are you'll either
a) overdo it, creating the most zany combinations, not all of which will be useful (which might be fun!)
b) overdo it, plunging the player into an obsessive compulsive hell of constant comparison
c) end up with Incursion's random item system which pretty much boils down to "[something] item [+-X] [of element]"; basically a very "factory conveyor belt" feel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm tickled pink if I find an adamantium spiked chain +3 of lightning, but it's not random at heart, see? It's a spiked chain + the material it's made of + a bonus or malus + an element.

A step down from this would be Angband/DCSS's system of items with bonus/malus and/or brand, right?
With the following step down being the even more common plain item with bonus/malus.

As for the concept of randomized equipment, I don't think I feel strongly about it one way or the other...
You could implement it in a game, but a lot of elements of the game would have to be fitted around it.


As for random quests though, why don't more roguelikes do this?

I am amazed that not all angband variants have quests. Having a guildhall in town, going there, picking up a quest to "slay X foo at Y depth for reward Z" is GREAT. ESPECIALLY for a game like Angband, which can get extremely... tedious/boring in between [buying a lantern] and [winning the game].
This sort of quest system is the perfect way to spice things up by giving the player a clear goal that's closer at hand than plain winning the game, yet provides a comparable challenge for his relative strength.
I've only seen it implemented in about 3 or 4 variants though, and sadly NOT in my favorite variants (exception being NPPangband).

There's the problem of 'who' gives out the quests. Angband has a town you usually go back to, problem solved.
For other roguelikes I think a decent solution would be for the player to (be able to) receive a quest when he prays to a/the God. Pray to your god while outside of mortal danger, receive quest, fulfill quest, receive rewards, repeat as needed.
In this context there'd be other possible quests outside of "slay X foo at Y depth", such as "sacrifice X gold to me within Y turns" or "sacrifice something BLUE to me" or "I have put all the foos on the next floor to sleep, reach the stairs down on that floor without waking any of them up" ETC ETC ETC.

I love the concept of random quests, and I'm sure there's plenty that can be done with it without interfering with the (usually) story-lite, single-goal nature of roguelikes. Ie. you could include them without encumbering the game with a story or turning it into an RPG.
 
I do, however, think quests are more suited for "long" and "safe" roguelikes. They're great for Angband and its variants, but they might be out of place in Rogue, which doesn't have that many floors to descend. Might also be out of place in Nethack, which has a different (deadlier) type of pacing.

[requerent]

Random XYZ quests are useful as tutorials, but if they give the player a perceivable edge without providing a significant challenge, they become fed-ex quests. You do them for the bonus to make the rest of the game easier. In a way, this can result in quests being obligatory- a randomly generated game can largely be about playing the odds. A minor increase in your chances to survive isn't typically worth ignoring.

In Brogue, you don't skip a depth that you could clear just because you might die. It's too risky to not take a lesser risk to make a future risk less risky. Similarly in ToME, you farm as many areas as you can at relevant levels to maximize survival. If you incorporate random quests, you balance for the random quests being completed, you add a seemingly arbitrary element to the game. Brogue does treasure rooms- they are 'quests,' but you don't get some contrived artificial narrative. You always try to do them because it's always useful.

Randomly generated quests that branch into other quests in a progressively generated narrative, however, is abso-fucking-lutely awesome.



I think that randomly generated monsters and items work very well when the narrative is randomly generated. Not pure random, per se--

I have been thinking about a way to make a randomly generated game that is procedural relative to the player's progress.

Each element of the game that is randomly generated also comes with a set of un-generated necessary requirements that get randomly placed into a priority queue. When the conditions for that generation arise, you generate something coherently connected with the original randomly generated object.

IE- you wake up in a cave, there is a Malbasian Wooflebuff name Groklus. Groklus has a diet, family, clan, other factional stuff, status, sleep patterns, racial weapons/skill, relationships, children, pets, a house, properties, assets, and friends and family that love him very much. None of these details NEED to be generated when we create Groklus. We can create that later, expanding on the web of the known world relative to the player. Every action is intimate because the world is generated around the consequences of the player's action. Whether Groklus's parents decide to try and hunt you down depends upon whether or not they like Groklus or whether or not they know that you killed Groklus.

It's a difficult approach, but the opportunities to create intensely intimate narratives is astounding.

Similarly, as the entire world is generated, so too are the weapons used. You create paradigms of weapons, ranges of quality, etc etc etc. It'd be useful to give all items weaponized statistics, but keep everything local and gentrified in some way.

[guest509]

  The game FATE has randomized "Kill baddy X on Level Z" and also "Kill Y amount of X on level Z". If I remember, it also has a bit of "Kill X, Collect his Y on level Z." Then you come back to town for a reward.

  Monsters you kill to fulfill the quest are generally just up-stated and strangely colored normal monsters.

  But I wasn't so much talking about that. The overarching quest in FATE is also different. Like the end goal of the game is different every time. Not different enough to matter, it's always some large baddie at around level 40 you have to kill. His name and type is different each time. SO that's cool.

EDIT: As for a procedural narrative, you know, I just don't like it. I'm not a narrative gamer anyway. Not only is it not high on my value list, it's actually on my 'devalue' or 'annoyance' list. I love fiction. I love games. Together they are not good for me. I am in the minority I guess.

[Darren Grey]

GearHead 2 has random quests.  I've heard it's hit and miss whether they are compelling though.

[guest509]

I never really got in to the Gearhead games. Not my thing I guess.

[AgingMinotaur]

Randomized narratives would be insanely hard to get right, I think. Also consider that RLs are traditionally lacking in narrative, and more about exploration. I've been thinking that a RL with a randomized setting might be a good idea. Details concerning biotopes/genotypes, cultures etc. could be regenerated every game to give a fresh experience. Random cultural aspects could include stuff like technology (iron or not? literate or not?), architecture (stone houses? tree huts? nomads in tents?), laws/hierarchy (taboo to hurt animals? homicide accepted or not?), economy (monetary/barter? agriculture, crafts, animal husbandry?).

It's often said that designing a game with randomized content saves a lot of work, since you don't have to hand craft the entire game. But it is my feeling that when we're discussing things like these, the opposite might be true. Instead of writing a single narrative, you'd have to write enough "plug-in" content (narremes) to fill dozens of different stories/settings before the engine starts to produce interesting content. On the bright side, you can probably get away with using some clichés that you'd otherwise throw away, if randomization is cleverly implemented.

As always,
Minotauros

[Darren Grey]

Randomised content never saves work    The only time it might save some work is using existing level generators in a 7DRL.  Otherwise your procedural algorithms should be tailored and tweaked to your game content, and all that tweaking takes just as long (if not longer) than hand-designing every level.  The results are totally worth it of course 

[requerent]

 The game FATE has randomized "Kill baddy X on Level Z" and also "Kill Y amount of X on level Z". If I remember, it also has a bit of "Kill X, Collect his Y on level Z." Then you come back to town for a reward.

  Monsters you kill to fulfill the quest are generally just up-stated and strangely colored normal monsters.

  But I wasn't so much talking about that. The overarching quest in FATE is also different. Like the end goal of the game is different every time. Not different enough to matter, it's always some large baddie at around level 40 you have to kill. His name and type is different each time. SO that's cool.

EDIT: As for a procedural narrative, you know, I just don't like it. I'm not a narrative gamer anyway. Not only is it not high on my value list, it's actually on my 'devalue' or 'annoyance' list. I love fiction. I love games. Together they are not good for me. I am in the minority I guess.

If you don't like randomized narratives, then it isn't particularly important to have genuinely randomly generated gear/monsters. To make a game coherent, you'll have to have the RNG make basic solutions for monsters that you would have otherwise pre-conceived. Randomized stats are, in a sense, trivial because they tend to reduce coherency and a player's ability to understand his/her environment.

Random archetypes and paradigms and objects chained together in meaningful ways IS about the narrative, but it's also about creating coherence. You can exclude the narration from this idea and still have a variety of ungenerated properties for each object generated- it's still a narrative, but it doesn't have to be about the story. You might find a particular brand of sword which later turns out to be preferred by a particular racial type-- your experience with that type of weapon may or may not help you understand how to defeat them.