Author Topic: Weapon durability  (Read 11609 times)

NON

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Weapon durability
« on: June 16, 2012, 12:54:45 PM »
I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on weapon durability.

I want to implement weapon breaking in Infra Arcana to add to the risk and fear, and also to make weapons a more valuable thing to find.

But I want to be careful not to make it annoying (as this feature can certainly be).

What do you think about having every hit degrade the weapon a bit?

Say that you have an Axe + 2 (does 2 extra damage), and it has a current durability of 3000 (this value is not shown to the player). Every attack removes a few points from the durability (say 1d3). Some events like a critical miss (you fumble and hit a wall) removes a bigger value, and worst of all would be to attack something like an acid ooze. When durability drops below 2000 the weapon is now only an Axe +1. Below 1000 it has normal damage. Below 0 it has -1 dmg. Below -1000 it breaks completely.

Edit: Weapon related skills could reduce the durability losses
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 12:56:31 PM by NON »
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kraflab

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 01:06:15 PM »
I sincerely dislike these kind of systems in general.  If it is too fast, it becomes a nuisance.  If it is too slow then it doesn't matter.  I am completely on board with special effects causing things to happen, such as acidic enemies or critical misses where you hit a wall, because that makes sense to me.  In fact I think a cultist casting a spell that lowers your weapons damage permanently would be interesting (some may disagree with that).  But the slow degrade over time I think is just silly.  Of course this perspective is just based on every time I've seen it done, so you may be able to make it interesting.

NON

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 01:15:52 PM »
So how about exactly the system I described, but normal attacks would not affect durability?

Hm, but then it seems there's no need to keep track of a fine grained durability score. Just have a critical miss have X% chance of lowering the weapon's damage by 1.
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kraflab

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2012, 01:37:55 PM »
That's what I would do.

In epilogue the only instance of this is certain enemies with acid attacks that would do something like "8 protection -> 7 protection" with each hit on your armor.

Alex E

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2012, 06:34:14 PM »
I don't really like "normal" attacks removing durability. It would make armor not as exciting to find since it will just weaken anyway from normL attacks. I do however think that certain enemies, such as those with acid attacks, could damage armor, so that avoiding those types of enemies would be more important.

Krice

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2012, 08:30:13 PM »
If it is too slow then it doesn't matter.

It does if there is limited amount of weapons. It would make important to select a weapon for different monsters and keep better weapons against difficult monsters.

kraflab

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 12:31:10 AM »
If it is too slow then it doesn't matter.

It does if there is limited amount of weapons. It would make important to select a weapon for different monsters and keep better weapons against difficult monsters.

That sounds like it would create the type of situation where no one uses their good weapons because they don't want them to get damaged.  I understand your point, but what strategic or fun benefit is gained by forcing the player to micro-manage their weapons on a per-monster basis?  Certainly for the odd acid enemy I again think it works out, but swapping in and out for each enemy caliber seems a drag.

Skeletor

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 12:47:29 AM »
I always like this feature in videogames if well implemented.
As you said NON, it makes weapons more valuable and adds further tactical elements to the game ("wait, an acid ooze.. let's grab the stone club).
I'd like to see different max durability (not just 100 for every weapon) with also some extra features (stone and gold: doesn't get corroded by acid; wood: triple damage when in contact with fire..).
Would be nicer if the current durability of a weapon is always shown.

The only downside is this adds some more inventory management issues, but being Infra Arcana a game with essentially no potential backtracking problems, I'd go for it mate.
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.

Krenium

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 01:31:40 AM »
I think it could work well, but mainly if it can end up helping the player somehow. In Diablo II, for example, there were ethereal weapons that did more damage, but couldn't be repaired. If you found a zod rune, however, you could stick it in the weapon and it would become indestructible. Sometimes items would spawn with "repairs x durability every y seconds" which would make them effectively indestructible too.

Giving the player the opportunity to eventually overcome the drawbacks of weapon degradation could give quite a bit of depth to loot.

NON

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 03:47:08 PM »
The only downside is this adds some more inventory management issues, but being Infra Arcana a game with essentially no potential backtracking problems, I'd go for it mate.
That's a good point. Since the levels are small and you can't go back to previous one's, it may actually work to have continous weapon degradation. Like Krice says, if the weapons are limited it becomes a matter of choice what to use of what you find.

Just need to have some restraint in what sort of things does big damage to weapons, so it doesn't become micromanagement (like Kraftlab points out). It would be tedious as hell if for example sharp weapons degraded faster vs armored enemies. That would create the infamous golf bag effect.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 08:24:48 PM by NON »
Happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes.

Ancient

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 10:18:03 AM »
I'm acting as a sort of librarian lately but here is something you might find useful: a post from rgrd thread.
Michał Bieliński, reviewer for Temple of the Roguelike

Omnomnom

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2012, 12:05:37 AM »
I don't engage deeper creatures at melee range anyway, not worth the risk imo. I either run, teleport, use dynamite or fire tesla cannon at them. Melee would be a real last resort if I was cornered. I have nasty experiences walking up to and trying to melee tough enemies, realizing they do horrific damage and then with them right up against me, I am in the worst position to start running.

I actually like how melee weapons and melee skills seem necessary to get so far, but when you get deep enough they become obsolete against the tougher enemies and my emphasis switches to using energy weapons. In fact eventually I even find the guns are risky unless I use magic alongside them (eg paralyze enemies). Finally against certain fast and powerful creatures near the very end I don't even try fighting, I just use magic to escape/evade (stealth, teleporting, paralyzing/slowing enemies, using clairvoyance to find the stairs, bolting for it)

NON

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 06:47:23 AM »
Ah nice. That's how it's intended to work. You are not supposed to stand a chance against the toughest enemies by normal fighting, you HAVE to use magic (or be very lucky with sneaking maybe).
Happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes.

wire_hall_medic

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2012, 05:53:12 AM »
I find that durability just reduces the fun of finding equipment, rather than increasing fear.  Finding something awesome is measurably less so, when you know the thing is only good for a hundred swings or so.  This is very evident in, say, DoomRL, where weapons don't have a durability (Awesome!  I just found an amazing new weapon!) but armor does (Oh, amazing armor.  That'll be helpful for a little while). 

More effective is the rust monster concept.  Equipment is presented to the player as permanent; something that can be depended on.  Then suddenly, there's a rust monster/fire elemental/corrosive slime/thief/whatever, and the untouchable asset is in danger, thus threatening the player in a long-term way.

Snargleplax

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Re: Weapon durability
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2012, 06:42:14 AM »
I tend to hate durability systems for the same reasons as everybody.  I think it comes down to the fact that when you get a new piece of equipment to put on, it feels like something that's supposed to be yours to keep, and it's a downer when something like that gets permanently damaged (or damaged in a way that's troublesome to fix, like wasting a scarce enchant scroll).

I wonder if it could be made fun, though.  Like, what if you took it really far?  What if weapons and armor degraded so fast that you were really replacing them all the time?  I think they'd start to feel a bit like ammo.  Eventually you'd overcome that feeling of "this is supposed to be permanent," and adapt to doing something more like living off the land, using what you find.  Other styles of games, such as platformers and shooters, do stuff like this all the time, and it's lots of fun.  I think there's a lot of room for roguelikes to explore in that direction, so I'm all for this kind of departure, but only if it fits with your game.