Author Topic: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)  (Read 31694 times)

Essegi

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 03:28:52 PM »
Ah ah so the Amulet of Yendor is the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to kill the-killer-rabbit! ;D
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:30:27 PM by Essegi »

soneblees

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 10:38:52 PM »
I couldn't recommend anything but Brogue.
Why? Because it's simpler, NO SPOILERS required at all, and very few controls to memorize.

Essegi

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 05:41:39 PM »
Maybe i should take a look closer to Brogue, i see many reccomendations (on other places).
I haven't yet had the chance to begin a serious play, just checked new versions of WazHack and tried (and incidentally beaten) Cardinal Quest...
Anyway i'll start with DCSS, i played it once and i liked it a lot. Also Tome seems truly excellent (and different, more "transparent"), today i've seen the tutorial. In future i'll take  Adom on, for now i wait the fruits of the crowfunding (since i've donated :P).

Ah, i've played a couple of times at Ivan (best name ever), not enough to remotely understand the game but: nice tiles and interface, maybe simpler than others (but not simple) but it's wicked and utterly cruel. And fun! :)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 05:47:34 PM by Essegi »

kraflab

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 12:23:03 AM »
Maybe i should take a look closer to Brogue, i see many reccomendations (on other places).
I haven't yet had the chance to begin a serious play, just checked new versions of WazHack and tried (and incidentally beaten) Cardinal Quest...
Anyway i'll start with DCSS, i played it once and i liked it a lot. Also Tome seems truly excellent (and different, more "transparent"), today i've seen the tutorial. In future i'll take  Adom on, for now i wait the fruits of the crowfunding (since i've donated :P).

Ah, i've played a couple of times at Ivan (best name ever), not enough to remotely understand the game but: nice tiles and interface, maybe simpler than others (but not simple) but it's wicked and utterly cruel. And fun! :)

The more I think about it, the less I like Brogue.  It seems like it should be really good, and it's definitely got the flash, but it still suffers from the design errors that I tend to hate in "classical" roguelikes.  Same with dcss.  They're both great games, don't get me wrong, just flawed in the end.

Essegi

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 11:59:07 AM »
The more I think about it, the less I like Brogue.  It seems like it should be really good, and it's definitely got the flash, but it still suffers from the design errors that I tend to hate in "classical" roguelikes.  Same with dcss.  They're both great games, don't get me wrong, just flawed in the end.
I just tried Brogue on the fly in the past, for some reasons i was note very appealed.
Could you explain what you don't like of classical roguelikes?

kraflab

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 05:22:52 PM »
The more I think about it, the less I like Brogue.  It seems like it should be really good, and it's definitely got the flash, but it still suffers from the design errors that I tend to hate in "classical" roguelikes.  Same with dcss.  They're both great games, don't get me wrong, just flawed in the end.
I just tried Brogue on the fly in the past, for some reasons i was note very appealed.
Could you explain what you don't like of classical roguelikes?

It's simple really, and the major design flaw is something I fundamentally don't understand.  Roguelikes are supposedly about tactics and strategy.  Look a bit deeper and I think it breaks down.  If you are good enough to get past maybe level 3 in dcss you hit this coasting period.  You really can't die unless you do something stupid, and when you do die it's because the game got so boring you stopped paying attention.  So why are those levels even there?  Another thing that annoys me is the heavy chance element.  If you look at http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2012/08/first-win.html you will see a very specific example of this.  It's that lack of feeling a threat that bothers me.  Obviously I'm not going to say that it was no accomplishment to win, it was, but I think those types of circumstances soil the experience a bit.

Now I don't want to be completely negative here, since I do enjoy playing the classic roguelikes from time to time, but in my mind they completely fail to do what should be the great thing about a roguelike.  That's honestly why I wrote my roguelike, because I felt that even the so-called major roguelikes "got it wrong" in a sense.  Obviously spoiler-necessary content is another terrible thing, although it can be fun if you like that sort of thing.  Anyway, Epilogue basically cuts out the bs from the roguelike genre.  You do not ever coast.  The first 3 levels are a bit chill while you build your character (although you can still die if you make mistakes) but after that is the only roguelike I've played where I literally stop and think every single turn.  I think they've talked about that on rlr as being the goal of a roguelike in some respects.  Every turn should matter.  On the last level I honestly stop and examine my surroundings after every step.  The tension is just really that high.  And best of all, things are balanced so tightly that you really can't blame the game for your death (although you might if you don't understand the game). ;)

Essegi

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2012, 09:38:43 AM »
Ok, i think i got your point :)
Anyway there's plenty of room to do something stupid and die, especially for newcomers. :P And for more relaxed play there's the mechanics of hunger that keep it interesting imho.

Yesterday i played a little DCSS: autoexplore is truly an excellent feature, it speeds up play significantly. Maybe sometimes it seems you are doing well, but the situation can degenerate suddenly.

I played a bit Epilogue (of course voted on GreenLight :D), i agree that it's difficult and you have to think every move, you can die easily in the first floor if you dont't pay attention.
Another game somewhat similar is Through, although simpler, i remember an old version to be quite hard and tactical.

RogueMaster

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2012, 11:01:14 AM »
Here the RL's I love:

Rogue, that started it all: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Rogue
Larn: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Larn
Nethack, as you stated. You can also try Nethack Falcon's Eye that is a 3D version of NetHack.

Other ones that may got your attention and I liked them too:

Hydra Slayer: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Hydra_Slayer
Berserk!: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Berserk!
BRogue: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Brogue
Incursion: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Incursion


Other I tried but I didn't like that much but still, they are not bad:

IVAN (Iter Vehemens Ad Necem): http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=IVAN
Lost Labyrinth: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Lost_Labyrinth
Nazghul: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Nazghul
DiabloRL: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=DiabloRL


Other RL's that I never played but they look good and they are in my "ToDo" list:

PRIME: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=PRIME
Silver Quest: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=SilverQuest
UnReal World: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=UnReal_World <- Actually I played this, but only 5 minutes, and it seems incredible complex.
Xenocide: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Xenocide

guest509

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2012, 04:49:26 PM »
  Good call on PRIME. It's really coming along.

RogueMaster

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »
  Good call on PRIME. It's really coming along.

Yes. It looks great. Actually it's the first RL in my ToDo list.

Damn there are so much promising RL's and days only have 24 hours...

Essegi

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Re: For a newbie: DCSS or UnNetHack (or Crawl or NetHack?)
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 11:07:52 AM »
Damn there are so much promising RL's and days only have 24 hours...
Lol true, and lately i'm looking also to old/hardcore indie crps (Eye Of The Beholder, Realms Of Arkania, Knighs Of The Chalice, and looking to Age Of Decadence among others) and little time to play.
Thanks for pointing out Prime, i have never tried it.

Ah, i've tried a couple of time NetHack with Falcon's Eye, it has some nice things, i like the music too, but i don't like the perspective, sometimes it seems more difficult to understand.